BC, Muzzle Velocity, Bullet Expansion, Penetration. What counts the most and why?

nralifer

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A bullet through both lungs, no expansion or otherwise... and that critter is dead as disco. Might not happen as fast as we'd like, but it's dead.


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It will be dead eventually. The operative word is eventually, but maybe not. You need to understand the physiology of what happens. I’ll give you a personal experience. I shot a Black Wildebeest though both lungs using a Sierra Game King from a 300 WSM at 360 yds. Bullet never recovered but on the far side exited causing a 2inch exit hole. Animal ran off like nothing happened and we chased it literally for a mile or better before it went down! When we caught up to it it was still alive and breathing heavily causing a to and fro sucking sound through the large exit hole which had little blood coming from it. Had to give it a finishing shot. There was no exsanguination, tension pneumothorax. Probably would have died of exhaustion and starvation or been eaten by a predator. The problem was the large exit hole preventing a tension pneumothorax, a
and failure to hit a large vessel.
 

Hand Skills

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Yup, lung collapse is not guaranteed by an exit wound. Seen it many times.

The world I live in is not dualistic. It is not 'black and white'... It's nuance that keeps me curious
 

orkan

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we chased it
This set off all sorts of red flags.

I'm not sure how it works on African animals, as I've never shot one... but here, the last thing in the world you want to do to a hit animal, is chase it. You put enough adrenaline and flight response into an animal, they can defy all that is known of biology.

However, if you put that bullet through both lungs, I fail to see how any animal would make it a mile if not pursued.

I'm glad you recovered your animal. I might need to read a couple thousand more hunting stories before I'd ever hear of another instance of a double lung'd animal making it a mile after being shot. One lung, sure... could live for a long time. Two solid lung hits? Never seen it. Likely never will. Hope I don't.


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bigngreen

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This set off all sorts of red flags.

I'm not sure how it works on African animals, as I've never shot one... but here, the last thing in the world you want to do to a hit animal, is chase it. You put enough adrenaline and flight response into an animal, they can defy all that is known of biology.

However, if you put that bullet through both lungs, I fail to see how any animal would make it a mile if not pursued.

I'm glad you recovered your animal. I might need to read a couple thousand more hunting stories before I'd ever hear of another instance of a double lung'd animal making it a mile after being shot. One lung, sure... could live for a long time. Two solid lung hits? Never seen it. Likely never will. Hope I don't.


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A cow elk will take roughly 45min to finally bed down with a 168 TSX through the lungs that didn't open good, that's a lot of country at elks walking speed. Had a 127 Barnes poke through a cow and she made it around a basin on a trail that after about a mile brought her on another ridge just over 800 yards where she caught a 215 Berger which she didn't walk away with. Elk will flat pack a bullet but like you said you start giving chase too soon and it's on, that why I absolutely do not keep shooting holes in elk if the first shot was quality if a second shot ramps the adrenaline instead of dropping it they get a second life.
 

cabelasken

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I've always found that if you put a sneak on a animal and it is unaware of you or other hunters that the animal is somewhat easy to put down, but if the animal is pumped up by you or someone else, it is much harder to anchor. My custom riflemakers father was hunting in British Columbia on a bull hunt and the guide and the hunter came across a nice bull a little over 500 yds downrange. The father (a former benchrest champion) drilled the bull with a perfect double lung shot. The bull was dying and he head was drooping when the guide sent a challenge bugle. The dying bull postured up and looked around for the challenger. So, the father seeing the bull posture up, sent a second round downrange, 1 "away from the first. The bulls head started to droop and his legs wobbled and the guide sent another challenge bugle. The bull stood tall again and looked for the challenger. Before the father shot a third time, the guide stopped him and some 20 - 25 seconds after he first shot the bull dropped, never taking a step from where the first shot hit him. Adrenaline will do those sort of things.
 

fordy

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I’ve said this a hundred times here that there is an independent group that has no affiliation with Hammer other than they love their Bullets who have spent thousands ( and I am not exaggerating) of dollars and killed thousands ( once again no exaggeration) of animals to test these Bullets and yet when I post information pictures and or results it’s gets lost in the fairy dust magic bullet crowd, I don’t care what you shoot never have it just gets old hearing folks blah blah blah and yet they have never shot them
I mean no offense towards anyone

Gday people
I’ve read this thread & posted my response to it overall but this particular one needs clarification & attention
Although I note it will fall on deaf ears with the ones who seem to have a agenda base

Ok I’ll get called bias no doubt by them so whatever floats their boat but once again everyone’s entitled to make their own mind up . just filter through the crap is the hard part & this is especially true for the guys & girls new to the sport or seasoned hunters if they shoot a different pill & looking for a better mousetrap as the keyboard warriors take centre stage on a lot of occasions & criticise the knowledgeable ones & eventually it’s hands in the air & give up


What ButterBean has posted on dollars & animals is 100% correct & here I am yes defending a mate not for any other reason than the truth & wish I wasn’t here , i for one was asked to come on here some time back & not by anyone you may think which I kept declining & then bean asked , told him to stick it ( Steve never asked ) a young fella from Aussie rang me & told me a bit of what’s been going on some time back
& yet still going today so I needed to put my hand forward & explain a little ( my first thread was shut down because I broke the rules so I take that on the chin & I won’t do that again)

There is copying / pasting & agenda base people come in look good as trying to help then later the penny drops oh are they here for that , ok I assume this & not all individual are like that as many a genuine person here

From my position I didn’t care if bean posted my pictures ( yes I gave consent ) & no agenda base just excited of what hammers have achieved above every other pill I’ve used & im absolutely hopeless @ this technical stuff ( I have only just got to this smart phone world around 2019 & a mobile roughly 5 years prior to that & it’s been so frustrating for me even recently emails weren’t getting through yes I’m a total muppet but I try )

So the questions relating to $ & numbers of animals in relation to bean keep coming up & answered

I’m sick of this coming up just like the beanmore rifle he received as a joke yet he’s been bought by Steve , it has been explained so many times yet still comes up

so here we are again in this thread some considerable time later
Yep I will get a bit irate as I’ve had enough of people questioning his integrity
So here’s a bit of wan- factor & go shove this up your jumpers of the ones who it applies to

Yes no doubt out of our group I’ve taken the vast majority of animals & what I CAN shoot in a week most people can’t shoot in a lifetime yes a lifetime & what I use to shoot in a year I guarantee would blow peoples mind ( I still value everyone’s results & not trying to put a person who shoots a deer a year down you guys I like & I really like to see that smile on your face ) & if you want I’ll show a few pics of yesteryear to show im not messing around & I’ve got plenty of hammer kills but these are minuscule to my total numbers but ButterBean is not exaggerating & actually conservative

For reference one of my best memories Was around 30 goats in around 5 min shooting
Yes work that out 1 goat about every 10 seconds ( I’ll get actual numbers if needed but no stopwatch was used ) all out of a 300win mag shooting 181 gr hmantel from 30 to just over 400 yard
Then carried on finding another mob once gathered these up for processing later noting the ones that took longer to expire than bangflop yes everything was recorded in a little old notebook for reference

Numerous donkey / horses / deer / roo / pig / buffalo / springbok/ blesbok etc etc etc culls & notes taken to the best of my ability ( I used a sliding scale to put numbers in that just had to be ticked off for ea animal )

days / nights 100 to 300 critters was the normal
My personal best over 600 critters in just under 12 hrs & this wasn’t out of a chopper as I’ve done that also & you can rack some numbers up that way also

My biggest position I’ve always watched is the moment of impact to tipping on non cns shots & by far hammers have excelled in this field being number one hands down it’s not just this that I work on as autopsies are also carried out just not all as it’s impossible on the shear number of animals so I’m bias in saying yes I have a pretty good idea of what kills more efficiently than a fair few people ( still not trying to put down the majority of people just backing up butterbeans integrity with facts ) yet I’m not a guru just a dumb farmer these days as no second / third job doing what I use to do but I still probably shoot more in a week than most do in a long long time if ever ( I’m actually happier letting others do it these days )

This information has been relayed to bean & others on my thoughts ( yes only thoughts I get that part as remember I’m no guru or pretend to know everything but I’d say the fur calculator is pretty accurate as it dosent lie which is impact to tipping in yards ) yes I’ve relayed this info to Steve also
I’m not saying other pills don’t work as most do well ( in a certain range ) but nothings as consistent or versatile as hammers & this ultimately is all bean has been doing with my data & others , yes he’s parroted the animal data but he’s been open on that where others have done the opposite

Now I could have taken what I know to the next level & personally got in the gutter with certain individuals but I just let them know in a subtle way these days
this has probably put a target on me because a leopard dosent change its spots as that’s the way a certain individual works but I don’t care what they throw @ me as what I put up are facts but don’t bring my mates / family into this & call them a liar or agenda based , in Steve’s pocket etc , that crap dosent need airtime as new people to the sport start questioning & we should be together not against ea other

There are some real sick puppies on this forum so go puff your chest out & think your important with snide remarks or bait others but ultimately you are scum & I don’t even agree with the way bean comes back @ some people , I’ve also been guilty let’s make that clear but he is a incredible individual that I’m proud to call a mate & is a wealth of information & always willing to help

So in the future we will see if it comes up again 🤔
Just let me no if I should start posting pictures or is my word enough 🤷‍♂️You decide

To all you nice people I’m sorry for the rant please accept my apology if I stepped over the line but please rest assured bean is here to help not hinder or give false information & he also has some room for improvement like we all do & learning new things ea day
best wishes
Cheers Fordy
 

Northkill

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Gday people
I’ve read this thread & posted my response to it overall but this particular one needs clarification & attention
Although I note it will fall on deaf ears with the ones who seem to have a agenda base

Ok I’ll get called bias no doubt by them so whatever floats their boat but once again everyone’s entitled to make their own mind up . just filter through the crap is the hard part & this is especially true for the guys & girls new to the sport or seasoned hunters if they shoot a different pill & looking for a better mousetrap as the keyboard warriors take centre stage on a lot of occasions & criticise the knowledgeable ones & eventually it’s hands in the air & give up


What ButterBean has posted on dollars & animals is 100% correct & here I am yes defending a mate not for any other reason than the truth & wish I wasn’t here , i for one was asked to come on here some time back & not by anyone you may think which I kept declining & then bean asked , told him to stick it ( Steve never asked ) a young fella from Aussie rang me & told me a bit of what’s been going on some time back
& yet still going today so I needed to put my hand forward & explain a little ( my first thread was shut down because I broke the rules so I take that on the chin & I won’t do that again)

There is copying / pasting & agenda base people come in look good as trying to help then later the penny drops oh are they here for that , ok I assume this & not all individual are like that as many a genuine person here

From my position I didn’t care if bean posted my pictures ( yes I gave consent ) & no agenda base just excited of what hammers have achieved above every other pill I’ve used & im absolutely hopeless @ this technical stuff ( I have only just got to this smart phone world around 2019 & a mobile roughly 5 years prior to that & it’s been so frustrating for me even recently emails weren’t getting through yes I’m a total muppet but I try )

So the questions relating to $ & numbers of animals in relation to bean keep coming up & answered

I’m sick of this coming up just like the beanmore rifle he received as a joke yet he’s been bought by Steve , it has been explained so many times yet still comes up

so here we are again in this thread some considerable time later
Yep I will get a bit irate as I’ve had enough of people questioning his integrity
So here’s a bit of wan- factor & go shove this up your jumpers of the ones who it applies to

Yes no doubt out of our group I’ve taken the vast majority of animals & what I CAN shoot in a week most people can’t shoot in a lifetime yes a lifetime & what I use to shoot in a year I guarantee would blow peoples mind ( I still value everyone’s results & not trying to put a person who shoots a deer a year down you guys I like & I really like to see that smile on your face ) & if you want I’ll show a few pics of yesteryear to show im not messing around & I’ve got plenty of hammer kills but these are minuscule to my total numbers but ButterBean is not exaggerating & actually conservative

For reference one of my best memories Was around 30 goats in around 5 min shooting
Yes work that out 1 goat about every 10 seconds ( I’ll get actual numbers if needed but no stopwatch was used ) all out of a 300win mag shooting 181 gr hmantel from 30 to just over 400 yard
Then carried on finding another mob once gathered these up for processing later noting the ones that took longer to expire than bangflop yes everything was recorded in a little old notebook for reference

Numerous donkey / horses / deer / roo / pig / buffalo / springbok/ blesbok etc etc etc culls & notes taken to the best of my ability ( I used a sliding scale to put numbers in that just had to be ticked off for ea animal )

days / nights 100 to 300 critters was the normal
My personal best over 600 critters in just under 12 hrs & this wasn’t out of a chopper as I’ve done that also & you can rack some numbers up that way also

My biggest position I’ve always watched is the moment of impact to tipping on non cns shots & by far hammers have excelled in this field being number one hands down it’s not just this that I work on as autopsies are also carried out just not all as it’s impossible on the shear number of animals so I’m bias in saying yes I have a pretty good idea of what kills more efficiently than a fair few people ( still not trying to put down the majority of people just backing up butterbeans integrity with facts ) yet I’m not a guru just a dumb farmer these days as no second / third job doing what I use to do but I still probably shoot more in a week than most do in a long long time if ever ( I’m actually happier letting others do it these days )

This information has been relayed to bean & others on my thoughts ( yes only thoughts I get that part as remember I’m no guru or pretend to know everything but I’d say the fur calculator is pretty accurate as it dosent lie which is impact to tipping in yards ) yes I’ve relayed this info to Steve also
I’m not saying other pills don’t work as most do well ( in a certain range ) but nothings as consistent or versatile as hammers & this ultimately is all bean has been doing with my data & others , yes he’s parroted the animal data but he’s been open on that where others have done the opposite

Now I could have taken what I know to the next level & personally got in the gutter with certain individuals but I just let them know in a subtle way these days
this has probably put a target on me because a leopard dosent change its spots as that’s the way a certain individual works but I don’t care what they throw @ me as what I put up are facts but don’t bring my mates / family into this & call them a liar or agenda based , in Steve’s pocket etc , that crap dosent need airtime as new people to the sport start questioning & we should be together not against ea other

There are some real sick puppies on this forum so go puff your chest out & think your important with snide remarks or bait others but ultimately you are scum & I don’t even agree with the way bean comes back @ some people , I’ve also been guilty let’s make that clear but he is a incredible individual that I’m proud to call a mate & is a wealth of information & always willing to help

So in the future we will see if it comes up again 🤔
Just let me no if I should start posting pictures or is my word enough 🤷‍♂️You decide

To all you nice people I’m sorry for the rant please accept my apology if I stepped over the line but please rest assured bean is here to help not hinder or give false information & he also has some room for improvement like we all do & learning new things ea day
best wishes
Cheers Fordy
Man, that's a lot of meat you got stacking up there. 😲 You don't need to post anything for proof on my account, but pictures are fun. 😜 I think there was a thread for pictures you could contribute too.

I'm curious about the sheer numbers of kills. It boggles my mind. You must have an incredible overpopulation of wildlife in your area? Do you have a culling contract or something?
 

xsn10s

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Mar 7, 2016
Messages
4,873
These days I don't get to go out and hunt much. In the future I will. I make things more simple since life has gotten much more difficult. For 0-550 yards with my 30-06 I'll use a Partition, Ballistic Tip or some other bullet that fits my fancy. Beyond that I'll pick a Berger 185 gr to 215 gr. Whatever I get shooting the best.
 

fordy

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Nov 2, 2021
Messages
65
Location
aussie
Gday northkill
I’ll let bean post it where it is appropriate if he wouldn’t mind as I have trouble navigating

I’ve had culling contracts in the past some of these were for the human consumption or pet food side also helped a few mates out who are still in the culling industry was a wonderful resource of information for me & money made was a bonus lol as the contacts in Aussie , Africa & New Zealand that I’ve made are now lifelong friendships that I value the most
Also some of these culls are just shoot & let rot which is a shame & even last year we took well over 100 game animals in 10 days in the NT & all were left to rot , only odd head skin & horns recovered ( it’s a long story as why this happens on a regular base )

some of the most emphatic pills I’ve used are no longer made but did move on prior to them being discontinued as they also had some flaws for me oh shock horror I didn’t mention a hammer lol

Today I’m just lucky to have great mates also a property my family purchased solely for the next generation of hunters & the environment is in the 2nd most densely populated area in our state for deer ( actual helicopter grid system counting of numbers for assement of a game management plan was undertaken by our government )
I also have property protection permits for 8 species ( like your depredation permits I guess 🤷‍♂️ ) that I can & do hunt rear round with fairly substantial numbers along with a few other species that don’t need permits to hunt them but really we are culling around 80/90% of the time to try & get balance back in the ecosystem as conservation is a high priority for me along with taking the time with kids as they just light up my life when they hunt & the stories around the campfire are priceless
The Northern Territory in Aussie is one that is just incredible & teams numbers & my mate up there is a gun guide to boot

The numbers we are talking about is hard to fathom in some areas & stay tuned I’ve been researching a little & asking about a few things that may interest you 🤔but a more appropriate thread it will apply in
🤝
Cheers
 

Hand Skills

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Canada
Many may not realize that some folks in Aus shoot goats like North Americans do gophers and ground hogs.

Invasives are a real problem due to the lack of natural predators.

Perhaps that comparison will make it easier for some to wrap their heads around the sheer numbers.
 

orkan

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Many may not realize that some folks in Aus shoot goats like North Americans do gophers and ground hogs.

w47JgGV.gif



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nralifer

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This set off all sorts of red flags.

I'm not sure how it works on African animals, as I've never shot one... but here, the last thing in the world you want to do to a hit animal, is chase it. You put enough adrenaline and flight response into an animal, they can defy all that is known of biology.

However, if you put that bullet through both lungs, I fail to see how any animal would make it a mile if not pursued.

I'm glad you recovered your animal. I might need to read a couple thousand more hunting stories before I'd ever hear of another instance of a double lung'd animal making it a mile after being shot. One lung, sure... could live for a long time. Two solid lung hits? Never seen it. Likely never will. Hope I don't.


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In any animal, the physiology of lung puncture is the same. In the normal state both lungs are “sealed” by this thin membrane known as the visceral pleura. The chest wall is lined by the parietal pleura. The lungs are naturally elastic and tend to shrivel up when out of the chest. Normal breathing involves the diaphragm contracting and displacing downward as well as the muscle between the ribs contracting and displacing upwards, expanding the chest volume and the lungs at the same time. Breathing out is just the opposite with the lung elasticity shrinking the lung as the diaphragm and rib muscles relax. When a bullet perforates the chest wall, both lungs, and exits the far chest wall, BUT DOES NOT MAKE A BIG EXIT HOLE, the pleural lining of both the lungs is perforated creating escape of air into the space between the chest wall and lungs. The natural elasticity of the lungs makes this leak much worse. If the entrance AND exit holes in the chest wall are small, they tend to self seal entrapping the leaked air from the perforated lung to remain trapped in the “pleural space.” With each subsequent breath more air enters the pleural space forcing more collapse of both lungs, and with that less blood pumped by the heart. Remember, the right heart and left heart are separate pumps in series with the blood moving from the right to the left, but going through the lungs first. The right pump is a low pressure pump, thus the collapsing lungs eventually come under enough pressure from the entrapped air in the pleural space such that the low pressure right pump can’t feed enough blood to the high pressure left pump, so the blood output from the left heart stops and the animal loses consciousness and dies.
With a large exit hole the pressure of escaped air in the pleural space is relieved in between breaths allowing blood flow though the lungs and maintining enough left sided heart output to pump blood to the brain to maintain consciousness. A highly aerobic animal like a Wildebeest will have enough reserve of oxygen in its muscles to allow it to run away quickly for some distance. The trick is to make a bullet that will expand enough to damage the lungs severely but not create big exit holes.
 

orkan

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In any animal, the physiology of lung puncture is the same. In the normal state both lungs are “sealed” by this thin membrane known as the visceral pleura. The chest wall is lined by the parietal pleura. The lungs are naturally elastic and tend to shrivel up when out of the chest. Normal breathing involves the diaphragm contracting and displacing downward as well as the muscle between the ribs contracting and displacing upwards, expanding the chest volume and the lungs at the same time. Breathing out is just the opposite with the lung elasticity shrinking the lung as the diaphragm and rib muscles relax. When a bullet perforates the chest wall, both lungs, and exits the far chest wall, BUT DOES NOT MAKE A BIG EXIT HOLE, the pleural lining of both the lungs is perforated creating escape of air into the space between the chest wall and lungs. The natural elasticity of the lungs makes this leak much worse. If the entrance AND exit holes in the chest wall are small, they tend to self seal entrapping the leaked air from the perforated lung to remain trapped in the “pleural space.” With each subsequent breath more air enters the pleural space forcing more collapse of both lungs, and with that less blood pumped by the heart. Remember, the right heart and left heart are separate pumps in series with the blood moving from the right to the left, but going through the lungs first. The right pump is a low pressure pump, thus the collapsing lungs eventually come under enough pressure from the entrapped air in the pleural space such that the low pressure right pump can’t feed enough blood to the high pressure left pump, so the blood output from the left heart stops and the animal loses consciousness and dies.
With a large exit hole the pressure of escaped air in the pleural space is relieved in between breaths allowing blood flow though the lungs and maintining enough left sided heart output to pump blood to the brain to maintain consciousness. A highly aerobic animal like a Wildebeest will have enough reserve of oxygen in its muscles to allow it to run away quickly for some distance. The trick is to make a bullet that will expand enough to damage the lungs severely but not create big exit holes.

Interesting, to be sure. Thanks for sharing. What would you call a "large" exit hole?

Not once in my life have I poked a hole through 2 lungs in an animal, with anything, and had it live. Their lungs seem to fill with blood, no matter what... and I've seen quite a lot of splatter along a blood trail from them coughing it out.


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