Barrel Tuners- Muzzle Breaks- Barrel Harmonics Management
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nealm66
Well-Known Member
I don't think I could shoot the difference even if I had the gun that could. Really cool to see it. Thanks again for posting
Here's another site I found today that seems very data heavy, scientific and conclusive concerning barrel tuners and harmonics.
They cite Varmintal's a few times too. But their data and experiment is really interesting.
Part 1 http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=660
Part 2 http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=536
Part 1 is more interesting and more informative. Part 2 is all of the statistics, and you gotta have a cup of coffee to get through all of that unless you just love statistics, with confidence intervals, T tests and such. But excellent analysis and presentation.
One other thing I did today was investigate the Ezell PDT tuner that was mentioned above. I had never heard of it, and it is very interesting to me because it is using an enhancement over just weight and axial variation of the weight. It uses Particle Dampening Technology from a Thesis written by a Grad Student at Texas A&M in aerospace technology. I suppose those big jet engines and turbines can cause a lot of harmonics throughout an aircraft frame and enough vibration will cause them to rip themselves to shreds.
So, the PDT Tuner has tubes filled with Tungsten and that is what is varied axially along the barrel to Damp out harmonic vibrations.
That is a pretty interesting new thing I hadn't heard of before either.
They cite Varmintal's a few times too. But their data and experiment is really interesting.
Part 1 http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=660
Part 2 http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=536
Part 1 is more interesting and more informative. Part 2 is all of the statistics, and you gotta have a cup of coffee to get through all of that unless you just love statistics, with confidence intervals, T tests and such. But excellent analysis and presentation.
One other thing I did today was investigate the Ezell PDT tuner that was mentioned above. I had never heard of it, and it is very interesting to me because it is using an enhancement over just weight and axial variation of the weight. It uses Particle Dampening Technology from a Thesis written by a Grad Student at Texas A&M in aerospace technology. I suppose those big jet engines and turbines can cause a lot of harmonics throughout an aircraft frame and enough vibration will cause them to rip themselves to shreds.
So, the PDT Tuner has tubes filled with Tungsten and that is what is varied axially along the barrel to Damp out harmonic vibrations.
That is a pretty interesting new thing I hadn't heard of before either.
Wow! It takes very little movement to affect tune! I had no idea it was that little/sensitive. Thank you!
Rardoin
Well-Known Member
You could with a 22lb F-open rifle/2.0 oz Jewell trigger on a SEB Neo joystick front rest and 18lb rear bag. Absolutely.
Woooofff. That puts my old BR rifle to shame
I shot 10.5 and 13 lb class back in the day..
I shot 10.5 and 13 lb class back in the day..
I just now caught your meaning......you really did not mean to say--- no pun intended, he has it "dialed in" right?
Maybe I should have added the word "literally"?I just now caught your meaning......you really did not mean to say--- no pun intended, he has it "dialed in" right?
When I was a Turbine tech back in the 1970's-1980' we ran vibration surveys on rotational equiptment,mostly turbines.One day in the late 1970's a guy I worked with and I took the IRD to the range to check for vibrational survey on my Ruger 77 30-06.With factory ammo I shot a few 1 1/2 inch groups for the survey and had a transducer tapped on the barrel at different places to check for vibrational spikes along the barrel.
The highest vibrational spikes were at the chamber end and found the true node(point of no change)not quite 1/2 way on the 22 inch barrel and at the last 2 inches of the barrel we had vibrational spikes close to the chamber end which caused vibrational undertones and overtones totally unequal like at the chamber end.
That is why I know barrel tuners work!A gunsmith made his own adjustable brake with shims to adjust for barrel harmonics.1970's was not with the times yet and even though rudimentary as it was it worked.With the exact same 30-06 180 gr Remington ammo I reduced my groups to 3/4 in at 100 yards.
I am not a brake person as it (and turbines)caused hearing loss even with hearing protection of the times but know for a fact that barrel tuners work!Sorry for long winded post.
The highest vibrational spikes were at the chamber end and found the true node(point of no change)not quite 1/2 way on the 22 inch barrel and at the last 2 inches of the barrel we had vibrational spikes close to the chamber end which caused vibrational undertones and overtones totally unequal like at the chamber end.
That is why I know barrel tuners work!A gunsmith made his own adjustable brake with shims to adjust for barrel harmonics.1970's was not with the times yet and even though rudimentary as it was it worked.With the exact same 30-06 180 gr Remington ammo I reduced my groups to 3/4 in at 100 yards.
I am not a brake person as it (and turbines)caused hearing loss even with hearing protection of the times but know for a fact that barrel tuners work!Sorry for long winded post.
Yep, Great story from the 1970's. Ain't nothin New Under the Sun.....I think King Solomon mighta said that in Ecclesiates but he wrote a whole book on it! Rifles been vibrating and sounding off since the first blunder busses and muskets. Nowadays we can use technologies developed for aircraft or military applications or space exploration, physics, and computer analysis and models to really figure out the minutia of what really goes on after the trigger pull.
The fact that your instrumentation and transducers indicated that there was a lot of harmonic vibration at the chamber is no surprise.
What is really revealing and may mean a lot more about POI for accuracy and where the bullet hits was that big spike in vibrational harmonic song the barrel was singing in the last 2 inches just before bullet exit. That barrel was whipping around like spaghetti just as the bullet left, and that is why barrel tuners work. No amount of bullet seating, and powder selection can keep that barrel from flexing all around at the end just before the bullet leaves. It can help on timing and consistency of when the bullet leaves and getting it to leave at about the same point in that whipping/flexing cycle, but the tuner will help take out another 30% of that deviation IMHO.
So, that's why you can go from 1.5 inch MOA to .75 MOA even with a crude handmade expedient tuner.
Short fat barrels won't be as affected or as much improved by a tuner, and really finely made custom rifles that already shoot .5 and better size groups may not be improved as much, but they can still be improved from .5 to .3 MOA with some tuning.
There are always residual harmonics left over to work on, but like anything, there is the law of diminishing returns when you
get way out on the improvement curve. The increments of improvement you can achieve get less and less.
The fact that your instrumentation and transducers indicated that there was a lot of harmonic vibration at the chamber is no surprise.
What is really revealing and may mean a lot more about POI for accuracy and where the bullet hits was that big spike in vibrational harmonic song the barrel was singing in the last 2 inches just before bullet exit. That barrel was whipping around like spaghetti just as the bullet left, and that is why barrel tuners work. No amount of bullet seating, and powder selection can keep that barrel from flexing all around at the end just before the bullet leaves. It can help on timing and consistency of when the bullet leaves and getting it to leave at about the same point in that whipping/flexing cycle, but the tuner will help take out another 30% of that deviation IMHO.
So, that's why you can go from 1.5 inch MOA to .75 MOA even with a crude handmade expedient tuner.
Short fat barrels won't be as affected or as much improved by a tuner, and really finely made custom rifles that already shoot .5 and better size groups may not be improved as much, but they can still be improved from .5 to .3 MOA with some tuning.
There are always residual harmonics left over to work on, but like anything, there is the law of diminishing returns when you
get way out on the improvement curve. The increments of improvement you can achieve get less and less.
I believe that too Veteran.I had the barrel replaced with a #5 contour Sheilen select 26 inch back about 2003-2004 and now shoots impressive groups and has velocities within 80 to 90 fps of the 300 win mag.
My grandfather bought a Winchester 70 in 30-06 back in the 1950's and shot super groups.He got in a bind and sold it to get himself and his family out of that bind.Somewhere in the early 60's he bought another and could not get it to shoot under 2 inches at 100 yards with the same scope he had on his first winchester 70.Two different gunsmiths worked on it and never shot well.Could be a soft spot in the pour.
Steels has come a long way but still suffer from high amplitudes of barrel whip except as you said the short fat barrels.I enjoy your's and other's knowledge on the subject and will keep watching this thread with interest.Have a great day Veteran
My grandfather bought a Winchester 70 in 30-06 back in the 1950's and shot super groups.He got in a bind and sold it to get himself and his family out of that bind.Somewhere in the early 60's he bought another and could not get it to shoot under 2 inches at 100 yards with the same scope he had on his first winchester 70.Two different gunsmiths worked on it and never shot well.Could be a soft spot in the pour.
Steels has come a long way but still suffer from high amplitudes of barrel whip except as you said the short fat barrels.I enjoy your's and other's knowledge on the subject and will keep watching this thread with interest.Have a great day Veteran
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Doozy
Well-Known Member
I have just a couple cents to add to this conversation.
Some materials are better at absorbing vibrations than others. If I were to market a dampener, I would not use a hard material, like a metal clamp or hard plastic. Something like Sorbothane seems ideal, which converts vibrations into heat. It is used in the space shuttle, Vitamix blenders, and baseball gloves. There are probably other versions of this material available, but you can buy strips of it online under the name "Isolate It." Here's what Sorbothane claims about their product.
When I was researching this a couple years back, I found out that there are different types of Sorbothane materials and some are optimized better for certain frequencies of vibrations, as well as intended uses and environments. This led me down a rabbit hole that caused me to leave it alone, as it was getting too involved.
Some materials are better at absorbing vibrations than others. If I were to market a dampener, I would not use a hard material, like a metal clamp or hard plastic. Something like Sorbothane seems ideal, which converts vibrations into heat. It is used in the space shuttle, Vitamix blenders, and baseball gloves. There are probably other versions of this material available, but you can buy strips of it online under the name "Isolate It." Here's what Sorbothane claims about their product.
- It absorbs up to 95% of shock energy and more than 50% of vibration energy for millions of cycles;
- It performs across frequencies from 10 to 30,000 Hertz;
- It performs across temperatures from –20° to 160° Fahrenheit (–29° to 72° Celsius);
- It is resistant to fire, chemical solvents, and performs in harsh industrial environments;
- It has a long shelf life;
- It combines shock absorption, good memory, vibration isolation, in addition to damping characteristics; and
- It is an extremely cost-effective solution because it can be easily fabricated or modified to any shape, size, and thickness.
When I was researching this a couple years back, I found out that there are different types of Sorbothane materials and some are optimized better for certain frequencies of vibrations, as well as intended uses and environments. This led me down a rabbit hole that caused me to leave it alone, as it was getting too involved.
Very interesting.....its a step further than the Particle Dampening technology with tungsten tubes the Ezell tuner is using. I would think if this material is not to unreasonably expensive, that its something Harrell's, ATS, Ezell, and EC Tuner should look into. The only issue is let's say it works, but you can get 90% there using existing technology and materials and at a cheaper cost, then its probably not going to be cost effective on the diminishing returns curve. Someone ought to investigate and test it though to see.
It sounds like something that would be used on the Space Shuttle, or in some very sensitive mission critical process where harmonic vibration can be catastrophic and no cost is too much to make sure vibrations are dampened. But if its cheap enough for baseball gloves and blenders it might be really cost effective? Does it glow in the dark if it converts vibrations into heat??
Rardoin
Well-Known Member
I don't think tuners are about dampening vibrations as much as they are about changing the location of the nodes so the muzzle is at the center of a vibrational node...ie- not moving when the bullet exits. The particle dampening tuners I have don't seem to work any different than the solid mass tuners. They both are equally effective for what we are trying to accomplish.
