barrel options

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Olio Tutto, Nov 2, 2007.

  1. Olio Tutto

    Olio Tutto Well-Known Member

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    if you were to build a wildcat in a short action .25 cal that could lauch a 120gr bullet at 3200+fps what twist rate would you use... barrle length..
    also would it have a short or long throated chamber.. ?
    i would have in mind to use it for a part bench an varmint
     
  2. Wild_Bill

    Wild_Bill Well-Known Member

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    25/284

    Hi look at the 25/284. You will get 25-06 performance in a short action have a wyats extended mag box fitted to a Remington action and you will be good to go.

    Cheers Bill
    Australia
     
  3. Olio Tutto

    Olio Tutto Well-Known Member

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    Hi Bill using a 243/308 case , whats a wyats ?

    if you were to build a wildcat in a short action .25 cal that could lauch a 120gr bullet at 3200+fps what twist rate would you use... barrle length..
    also would it have a short or long throated chamber.. ?
    i would have in mind to use it for a part bench an varmint

    open on suggestions......... Thanks
     
  4. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

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    The standard twist rate for factory 25-06 is 1-10 , I have heard some guys can shoot the long Berger bullets but some can't so I think that the 1-10 is right on the brink of minimum amount of twist for these long high BC bullets. I do know some guys that shoot the 120gr class hunting bullets with no trouble out of their 25-06.

    What kind of bullets are you planning to shoot out of this rig , the long high bc or the shorter hunting type? As for barrel length , I'd say that you'll need at least a 26" to get that velocity out of that small of a case , I would probably opt for a 30" and then cut it back later if you need to. i think you may be working with some high pressures if you able to get 3200fps out of a 308 case with a 120gr bullet in the .257 bore.

    The Wyatt's box is an extended magazine box that allows you to seat your bullets out a good bit further to allow more room in the case. I highly recommend that anybody building any type ofr long range gun in either long or short action have a Wyatt's box installed especialy if your using a 284 case in a short action.

    Are you dead set on the .257" bore ?? for paper punching and varmints the 243 and the Ackley improved version are awsome rounds out to 1000yds as is the 260 and 260 improved with 95-140gr bullets. I only mention this because of the limited amout of quality match bullets for the quarter bore.
     
  5. Wild_Bill

    Wild_Bill Well-Known Member

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    Cases

    Hi the twist I would use is 1in9 so the 120gr Bergers will definitely stabalise.

    As for cases an improved 308case will noy get you there safley. 257Roberts improved will only push a 100gr at 3200fps abd it is a lot larger.

    You will need a 284case necked to 25cal to do it in a short action. This will duplicate 25-06 ballistics. I also think you will need a barrel at least 26" long to get the velocity.

    Hope this helps your gunsmith should know about fitting Wyats mag boxes.

    Cheers Bill
    Australia
     
  6. Olio Tutto

    Olio Tutto Well-Known Member

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    well i had hopes of putting togeter a 25 souper improved improved' 45* shoulder an the wall is blown out to .461-2, rather then necking down a 308 case it seems to be easier to neck up a 243 case with a 257 die an then form fire it to the chamber but i just got back some speaks from a friend who put it on the quick load program it reaches 54000psi an at max gets me to 3100 fps with a burger 120 ..re19 / 48.5 out of a 23-1/2" barrel , have no idea where the col will be,the data is only program generated the reamer we located has a lead to throat .106 i think that includes free bore the neck will be short on the case,, so how far i can stick out the bullet i won't till it was put together[ if i go this route]
    most of the info came from a pre built winchester i'll be working with a 700 remington action which as a recest bolt face i don't know if the winchester has a flat face or not... would make a difference ?

    on the Wyats magazine does the action have to be machined? to make the box fit

    i just mite be better putting together a 6m br... i really wanted this souper deal :rolleyes:
     
  7. Wild_Bill

    Wild_Bill Well-Known Member

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    25 Souper

    Hi if you want the 25 souper get it built. forget aboul getting 3200fps and settle with whatever velocity you get. The wyats mag box requires the action to be machined back where the space between the trigger and the rem mag box cutout. it is a simple machining operation and I would definatley do it. Get the 9 twist barrel I recommend Lawton Barrels they areamasing in their finish and they shoot unbelievably well without fouling exsesivly.

    As for the cases if you are moving the shoulder foreward use Lapua 308 cases they can be sized in one operation in your sizing die. Buy your cases and dies then make up spme cases seat the projectiles to your maximum oal then send one to Dave Kiff and have him grind your reamer to suit.

    On the neck diameter have 1.5 thou clearence on each side off the neck making it 3 thou larger than the measured neck of your dummy cartridge. For your throat make tne frebore .2571" don't go bigger this will be the most accurate you can have it. Make then neck length around the projectile diameter .257 and the shoulder can be up to 60 degrees. I have 1 reamer a 338 on the 300 ultramag case with the 60 degree shoulder and have a match 7mm on the 270WSM case being made at the moment.

    I would look at H1000 and H4831SC as the prefered powders and stay away from double based powders as they are less effected by temperature variations. Also use the CCI BR2 primers as they work verry well with the above powders.

    Get a 28-30" barrel from Barney and you will have a beautiful cartridge and great long range rifle for medium game. There are also plenty off projectiles around the 117gr to 120gr weight to make this worthwhile.

    But if you are set on 3200fps the 284 case is a better option.

    Cheers Bill
    Australia
     
  8. Ridge Runner

    Ridge Runner Well-Known Member

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    wouldn't the 25 rsaum, or even wsm ensure him the velocity he wants? just a thought.
    RR
     
  9. Wild_Bill

    Wild_Bill Well-Known Member

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    25 Rem SAUM

    Hi the 25SAUM would give him the velocity + interest and would be awsome the o ly problem is he wants a 25 Souper .

    I was not even thinking the Rem SAUM case would be awsome.

    Cheers Bill
    Australia
     
  10. Ridge Runner

    Ridge Runner Well-Known Member

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    ok, he stated 3200 fps like if thats what he had to have and betting on picking up 200 fps by AI'in a souper is a big gamble unless he runs it from a long pipe.
    I can only run a 115 gr at 3000 from my 25 wssm and its basicly the same case capacity.
    RR
     
  11. Olio Tutto

    Olio Tutto Well-Known Member

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    i just came across an Old artictal [guns & game ] on the 250 humdinger .. says australia's best all-rounder? its a crossing of the 243 an the 25-06
    text an photos by breil jackson [writen up in the C O W #11 ] 1st gun was made in 1998 use a 1`-10 tw 23" barrel i have a measured drawing an with a diagram of the reamer from the pacific tool co. in the artical it has some loads ranging from 75gr to 120 gr. bullets.. the 120gr nosler mulwex ar2213 /46.0 @ 3014 fps at muzzle, never heard of mulwex? some one wrote under [in pen] the load [h- 4831] oal 2.830 it says all loads are are at max.. load 10% less to start... also shows a pic of the case with 45* angle shoulder..
    with such a sharp angle i'd wonder how the case doesn't colaps putting in the bullet ?
    i did a quick search on barrels an can't find a 1~8.5 barrel in .25 cal
    when you order a barrel does it come threaded an crowned/bottoned ?
    i 'm sure or realize i don't know how to ask the question when talking [LL or e-mail] one of these barrel companys as exactly what i need
    wild bills suggestion on lawton barrel seems to be a very good choice, but still open on this
    i think if a 25-06 can knock a deer down i see no reason why the hummer or what ever its called souper improved can't ... as for varmints an long range paper its can be a contender as well, after reading the artical i'm not so impressed as i was to start... action isn't here yet an don't know what to do about barrel ordering either..
    ,
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2007
  12. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

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    Generaly the barrel will come to you just as a contured blank with the bore rifled and lapped , no crown , no chamber and no threads. You can order some that way for extra cost but I think your money is berrt spent with the smith actualy installing the barrel to the action.

    I would think that the only thing between the 308 and the 30-06 case would be the 7x57. The 7x57 case is the parrent for the 6mm Remington , 257 roberts and several other wildcats , this case does have a bit more capacity than the 308 cause its longer but thats about it.

    Improving a case to a 45 deg shoulder would be a bit steep for my liking , like you said the chance of colapsing the shoulder is alot higher.


    I'm not sure exactly what it is that your wanting

    1) if you want a 25-308 improved great have one built , but know that
    your not going to run a 120gr bullet out at 3200fps , maybe once or
    twice but not for long before somthing breaks.

    2) if your wanting to run a 120gr bullet out at 3200fps then you need to
    look at the 284 case as a minimum and a long barrel , the RSUM or
    WSM would be a better parent.


    But to answer your first question about the barrel twist , a 1-9 will work fine and many barrel makers offer that twist
     
  13. eddybo

    eddybo Well-Known Member

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    Wild Bills idea sounds like the winner to me. I had a short action predator with a .308 bolt face and this was what I had decided on until I swapped it for another action with a mag boltface. None of my business, but why stick with the 243 or 308 case when a better alternative that will work with the same action is available? (Well its better IMO anyway.) Just was curious why the flat rejection of the 284 case?

     
  14. Wild_Bill

    Wild_Bill Well-Known Member

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    25 Calibre

    Hi Mulwex stands mulwala explosive company. They were renamed ADI, Mulwex AR2213 was the same burning rate as IMR4831, Then ADI released AR2213SC this is because it was a bit slower and the same as being sold to Hodgdon H4831SC so they did not hav to make extra propelants just for the Australian market. So the Mulwala factory still makes the powder here and holds the patents for the Extreem powders that are temperature stable.

    Now Briel Jackson is in the 70's with cartrige design in my opinion and can't get beyond that.

    As for barrels I now only use Lawton barrels as they hold current 1000yd world reccords and are the best finished barrels I have ever seen. They looy smother than a hand lapped button rifled barrel ant they are cut rifled.

    So the things to think off,
    What do you want?
    Do you want to use a 308 based case?
    Do you want to achieve 3200fps with a 120gr projectile?

    Wichever is the most important to you should be your deciding factor.

    So if you want a 308 case max out the capacity and you can safely go to 60 degrees on the shoulder they don't colapse I have one chamber with a 60 degree shoulder and another on the way for target shooting. JD Jones off SSK Barrels makes a lot off 60 degree shoulder angled cartriges with no issues I have had extensive discussions with him about the issues.

    Now if 3200fps+ is the most important factor and you will be using a short action there is the 284Win case necked to 25 cal if you have a 308 boltface.
    If you have a mag boltface action available the Remington SAUM case would be the best option for you. Also if you don't have an action a Remington or Lawton action is available for either.

    Cheers Bill
    Australia