Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

[noel carlson]

Bryan,

I defer to the judgement of those who specialize in mass marketing, when it is the public at large being addressed. In this particular instance, I think the forum itself acts as something of a filter. If it was not so, Barnes would have skated on this one, and that has not happened.

The ethical issues, while not quantifiable, matter a great deal to me. The Berger video statement put forth their VLD projectile as the "only ...ethical" choice in ELR hunting, and in so doing rendered anything Barnes said in their promotional ad irrelevant as to my objection. It is not simply a semantic slip, although it could easily be excused as sales language. This was a categorical assertion which common standards of morality would judge to be unsupportable in a broader context. Even comments within this thread challenge the notion, and this is from otherwise neutral (and even enthusiastically sympathetic) perspectives.

It is far from inassailable that the Berger VLD is the only means of humanely dispatching an animal at long distance (however "long" is defined), and I am virtually certain that it is not the best from the standpoint of external ballistic performance. You will have first hand knowledge of this when you model, and test the ZA338/6.0-Cu... and this is the "little" guy in the family...

The primary separator is cost, and the Berger VLD is indisputable, by me, for it's value as measured by a cost/performance ratio (not an ethics-performance calculus). This is "Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful" in my opinion.

Best,
Noel

 

[Shawn Carlock]

Noel,

I like to shoot bone mostly high shoulder. I require that at a given distance my bullets will penetrate heavy bone. If I miss my windage and drift into the heart lung area I would really like some expansion and fragmentation along with an exit wound. Heart lung hits while very terminal usually allow the animal some run time and an exit wound aids in tracking considerably. If I was a heart / lung shooter and miss my windage my bullet must be able to penetrate the bone structure to enter the chest cavity and or disrupt the CNS. I have seen bullets with violent expansion and lighter weights (for example a 120 gr 6.5mm bullet) hit a deer high in the shoulder at close range and fail to break the spine or penetrate the chest cavity. My answer to this is to use a bullet with a high BC for long range hits, heavy weight and caliber (30 or 338 and 200+ grains) and reasonable impact velocities. Even at close range the 210 Berger is still 210 grains, I have never seen it fail to penetrate anything at close distance and still opens up at long range and lower velocity. I only expect the 300 gr 338 bullet to be even more impressive. While the magic bullet may exist I just have not seen lighter bullets that will penetrate bone at long distance and also expand in soft tissue only hits, this includes the Barnes bullets. I have seen Barnes bullets have petal failure and come apart and I have seen them not expand at all. The only thing I have had consistant results with at distance are the larger, heavy, high BC expandable match bullets.

 

[noel carlson]

Shawn,

Thanks for the explaination. That is the type of detail which is very helpful to me.

The .338 "magic" bullet is 265 grains of "Ultem" tipped, turned tellurium copper, with a layered tin/bismuth/silver, tin/indium, bonded core. It will penetrate, and the three petals will not easily detach. The first 1/4" of the nose will fragment as part of a progressively controlled unfolding sequence, but by far, the majority of wound "fragments" from an impact by this projectile would be the animal's own bone.

I designed this based on assumptions which may, or may not, be valid. That is why the expandable/frangible balance needs to be clear to me. I am not attempting to match a market to an existing bullet, but a bullet to a inadequately served market. The entire endeavor is an off-shoot from a 420 grain, 7.0 caliber .375 projectile designed exclusively to target people with first-shot precision up to 2,000 yards, and equipment/material up to 3,000 yards. External ballistics in a hunting application are not a challenge, but the terminal ballistics requirement is confusing to me.

Again, thanks for the feedback.

- Noel

 

[Pdvdh]

Shawn,

If you want to read of my 210 VLD 300 Win Mag experience with the black bear, it's in this thread:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/berger-210-vld-black-bear-field-report-31392/

I posted this account just after the experience so this thread will be the most accurate depiction and description of the VLD's performance just off the end of my muzzle.

 

[Pdvdh]

Noel,

Sounds like StarTreck stuff. No wonder they would have to cost more than Berger VLDs.

Do you have an estimate on when these might be offered retail? Sounds you must have tested them for some time in order to be able to present the terminal performance features for us.

Thanks,


Paul

 

[esorensen]

Humans have been killing animals(and each other for that matter) since we needed to eat. Death is by definition the termination of life. It is this "clinical" death that is quatifiable. It can be measured and predicted. We can study anatomy /physiology and clearly see what it takes to extract life from an organism. ANY projectile introduced into VITAL areas of said organism causing destruction to ANY vital organ system will ultimately yield the clinical death of said organism. Stone, stick or 155 howitzer, clinical death is unerringly the same.

Death being caused by life, can only be differentiated by delivery. Old age?= Dead. Blunt force trauma?= Dead. Penetrating trauma?=Dead. If the delivery meets the prerequisite of vital system destruction, death is the same, no matter how it hapened to arrive. An archer who hits his quarry a little too far back severing the thoracic aorta or possibly even a femoral artery has accomplished his goal as a hunter in delivering death to his animal. Likewise, the rifle hunter who hits liver, lung or brain has done exactly the same.

We as sentient beings have essentially categorized "types" of death. Slow, instant, horrifying, are a few adjectives that come to mind. These types are a manifestation of our human ethos. It is what makes us human. However, in EVERY instance, regardless of "type", a quantifiable scientific reason for clinical death can be easily determined. A post mortem examination is infallible. Information gleaned from it will dispell or confirm any rumors, myths, truths etc.

Since this site is promoting long range hunting, it has defined a de facto arena for delivering fatal projectiles. The title of the website and the practice of this hunting style did not add and "only" at the end. The practitioners of this hunt style will readily accept and possible expect some short and medium range hunting as well. However, the emphasis is on the long range portion.

First and foremost in this is accuracy. If ANY given projectile cannot be introduced into a vital system, then it is for naught. Berger bullets are known in the industry for producing extremely consistent projectiles. To this end, they are accurate, consistently. The Berger VLD bullet based on flight characteristics alone is in perfect concert in a long range hunting role, even if we dismissed all terminal performance.

To tie all of this together, it is the shot placement that is the key. There is no other factor that will be more influential in delivering death. Poor bullet performance blamed on poor shot placement is faulty logic. On the same line of thought, expecting a projectile to perform outside its design is just as futile. I expect to see Barnes bullets to win a match as much as I expect to see multiple feet of penetration and small diameter permanent wound channels with a Berger.

I have killed animals with both. If I were able to put both animals side by side for comparison, in the end , they were exactly the same. DEAD. The vital damage perpetrated by both bullets was vastly different. Yardages were similar, caliber, bullet weight and speed were quite different as well. The key was the placement. IT was the exact same!

I am a Paramedic. We consider ourselves quite able in the art of "prolonging death". I have attended ATLS goat lab. The type of wound channels demonstrated by Barnes, in a perfect scenario, I could do quite a bit of work with. The damage shown by the Berger bullet is a type of broke that could only be treated by complete organ transplant, not field medicine.

In shooting lots of bullets from lots of reputable manufacturers, I have ended up with more yellow boxes on my bench. I cannot remove myself from the confidence they inspire when I pull the trigger. "They go where you point 'em", to quote Walt.

Sorry for the disjointed rant, spelling etc. it's late. It's just my opinion. I've found my magic bullet. Thanks Walt, Eric

 

[Shawn Carlock]

Well said.

 

[Broz]

Well said.

Plus 1

 

[eddybo]

+2

esorenson....ty....very well said

 

[noel carlson]

"To tie this all together, it is shot placement that is key." ...

"... flight characteristics alone is in perfect concert with a long range hunting role, even if we dismissed all terminal performance." ...

"The damage shown by a Berger bullet is a type of broke that could only be treated by a complete organ transplant..." ...

THEREFORE;

"I've found my magic bullet."

CONCLUSION;

In view of the preceeding premises, the last statement is a non-sequitor. Something other than regard for "facts" is prevailing here.

-1

 

[Eric Stecker]

Noel,

I have been making bullets since 1990. Years prior to my joining Berger, Walt was named the exclusive distributor for the J4 bullet jacket. Berger merged with the company that produced the J4 jacket and in 2006 Berger purchased J4.

As many are aware J4 jackets are used by nearly every custom bullet maker in this country and many others. Walt and I eagerly encourage and educate anyone who is interested in making bullets. We promote die makers and those who support bullet makers with materials and other tooling.

I want to make it very clear that we are not against the existence and success of other bullet makers. Walt taught me many years ago that there are enough shooters in the world to keep all the bullet makers busy. I have seen this first hand and believe it completely. I have gone so far as to work toward a cooperative between the major bullet makers in the interest of growing the shooting sports.

You might believe that I am saying this because of a point I want to make regarding Barnes. This is reasonable considering the topic of this thread but this is not the case. You are making it clear that your motives have little to do with the topic of this thread. Your comments are an obvious effort to further develop and promote your bullet.

Understand that as a fellow bullet maker I have no objection to the promoting of any bullet. My concern with your comments is that others might mistake them to be in an effort to support Barnes' position.

You are clearly intelligent and I expect that the concept and development of your bullet is well thought out. I have seen many start up bullet companies come and go. Some have managed to build good bullets and stay around long term. Time and results will tell whether you have been successful in developing the magic bullet. You are certainly not the first (and not likely the last) to attempt this feat. If you are successful there is no question in my mind that price will be less of a factor than you might think.

I suggest that your injection of this subject into this particular thread is causing confusion as to your intensions. I understand that you have been clear in your comments that you in general do not have an issue with my article in relation to Barnes' article. Your comments are focused more on why you believe your bullet is better than all others including ours which is not the subject of this thread.

I believe your cause will be better served if you started a thread titled "My hunting bullet will be better than all the others." I am confident that the debate will be clear and engaging.

Regards,
Eric

 

[esorensen]

Noel, sorry if my opionated statements are somehow misleading. With Berger bullets, I get to have my cake and eat it too. I get premium (read world class) external ballistics, as well as unprecedented terminal performance. Having both has long been the scope of bullet makers. However their results have been more or less marginal in respect to both departments. Most often one or the other to a greater or lesser extent.

I assume you are out to do the same. Create a superior flying projectile while retaining excellent terminal characteristics. Maybe I should have used a different term other than "magic". All of the information I presented was factual. I don't work for Berger. To me having both external and terminal ballistic performance that meet my objectives at a competitive price are indeed "magic". Just eatin' my cake and callin' it as I see it. Thanks, Eric

 

[noel carlson]

Eric,

As mentioned before, my limited experience with Berger, primarily through Bryan, has been positive. I believe that you encourage other jacketed bullet manufacturers, and understand that you even sell them components.

Notwithstanding your valid review of the Barnes promotional "data", there are other aspects of your article which implicate solids generally, and do fall within the scope of my criticisms. My comments have been germane to this thread.

To wit;

- Solids are not inherently less accurate.
- Solids are not restricted to a low BC.
- Jacketed bullets (the Berger VLD specifically) are not the "only... ethical" medium of a humane long-range kill, and by extension... solids unethical.

An explicit aknowledgement of this would actually satisfy any objections I might have to your article.


esorensen,

I did not mean to imply that you had a hidden agenda. The "X" factor that I could not put my finger on sounded more like a comfort/familiarity phenomena than anything else. I have run into that with regularity, and I do not think it is limited to this industry.

On the value aspect of the Berger, I could not agree with you more. While I appreciate Eric's optimism that price is a smaller obstacle than I suspect, I have no expectation that a highly developed hunt bullet will ever find general use.


Best,
Noel

 

[Pdvdh]

The Berger VLD bullet based on flight characteristics alone is in perfect concert in a long range hunting role, even if we dismissed all terminal performance.

In shooting lots of bullets from lots of reputable manufacturers, I have ended up with more yellow boxes on my bench. I cannot remove myself from the confidence they inspire when I pull the trigger. "They go where you point 'em", to quote Walt.

Sorry for the disjointed rant, spelling etc. it's late. It's just my opinion. I've found my magic bullet. Thanks Walt, Eric

Pretty good presentation of information and I won't be overly critical. I'll say that I'm not able to dismiss all terminal performance, and give one real-life example why. Dead is dead, but some animals won't be recovered without expansion on solid body hits through the lungs, and I suspect the liver also. I broadside dead-centered a Dall ram from 13 yds many years ago with a 280 AI 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip - MV ~ 2875 fps. The bullet penciled through with no expansion. The ram moved off 125 yds, bedded down, and was still healthy enough to motor away 30 minutes later. He was above tree-line in the mountains so I was able to observe the physiological response. When I saw small blood spots develop on both sides of the rib cage in the correct locations, I kept expecting the animal to expire at any moment. I finally gave up on the animal expiring and moved up to shoot again. When he saw me approaching at close range he was up and running on adrenaline again. Had this been a bear or many other game animals living in the timber, he would likely have never been recovered shy of the use of dogs. I finished him with a BT that did expand and performed my autopsy during the butchering process on that first hit. Exit hole out the ribcage same size as the entrance in.

I suspect your comment wasn't intended to be taken so literally, and was just part of expressing complete satisfaction with Berger VLD performance.

Don't get me wrong. I'm using VLDs for long range loads. That jaw-shot black bear was the first animal I shot with one. I should mention that three weekends ago I was hunting the same location and I shot a nice boar with a 210 VLD from the same rifle. He was standing about 5 feet from where the jaw-shot sow was the prior spring. This bear was slightly quartering away at 425 yds; the shot was through the rib cage and into the off side shoulder. Much deeper penetration was obtained. Some of the bullet exited in front of the off-side shoulder. This was a substantially larger bear and I never saw the animal so much as twitch after bullet impact. Instant immobilization. So I'm not on any mission to discredit the Berger VLD performance.

I had that first experience with one off the end of my muzzle that surprised me. I've since had two additional experiences on bear and caribou involving farther down range impacts and terminal peformance was devastating & deadly, in line with the majority of results I've read of.