Annealing Parameters

[daniel_k_malloy]

I don't have an AMP, and probably won't (if ever) for a while because I'm broke af.
That thing takes all the "guess" work out of the equation, no doubt.
BUT, I think the machine gets far more credit than its price tag suggests, simply because folks don't reign in their variables when annealing using other methods, namely, via flame.

I've watched countless videos and read countless articles on the subject. Consistency this, consistency that... yet even from competition shooters, I can't find a single source which consistently dials in on a primary variable when flame annealing. Temperature.

They adjust their flame to a certain contact point on their brass and that's all, then they time it to a tee, but holy hell, they never measure their actual heat output from one session to the next in order to ensure they're annealing with the same flame as they did previously. A minor knob adjustment can result in a 50-200 degree variance, yet they don't measure this?

Easy peezy from one batch to the next without blowing $1500 on something you can literally build yourself for $100 worth of Amazon parts.
1. Maintain same distance from case mouth to tip of torch.
2. Maintain height of flame... where it hits the case.
3. Maintain time in the flame.
4. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL, maintain consistent heat output. Measure the flame temp. Why does nobody measure flame temp from one session to the next? Everything else is irrelevant if you'd not setting your flame the same way emery time.

 

[milboltnut]

I use a deep well socket, power screw diver along with a tub of water next to a propane torch. The count is thousand 6, then into the water. Best effect is inside the tip of the flame where it crowns, the dark blue part. Rest that crown just below the shoulder. Don't it under bright light.. it's best to see the hint blue coming on.

 

[Mrvmax]

On the home built ones I've seen they measure flame temp in a round about way using Tempilaq. I used to knock the AMP due to cost, but I sold a couple guns and bought one. I do not regret it at all but if I could have found an equal cheaper I would have bought I try. I never annealed prior, but 6.5 PRC brass was so expensive and so hard to find it was getting worth the cost to start annealing.

 

[nksmfamjp]

I have an Annealeez. I setup and record: flame cone length; torch to brass distance; aim point of cone; and machine speed. Once you get all those things setup, you are good. It is repeatable.

I watch/measure cone length in case Gas pressure drops off. It really doesn't during the process as it takes just a couple min to process 50-100.

 

[Pdyson]

After watching Erik Cortina purposely try to destroy brass on a flame annealer then accurately test and compare neck tension with the new amp digital arbor press also made by Amp where he compared his normal "heat till the case just begins to glow" to leave the case in the fire as long as the machine will allow. They didn't melt
But they turned cherry red half way down the case. Dead soft? Yes sure but they still had decent neck tension. No, he didn't shoot them, that would be risky and stupid. However, still I began to think time and temp is not so critical as I was led to believe it's consistency that's most important. When he compared his precision amp annealed brass to his low precision flame anneal groups at 1000 yards with his F-class rifle, I was convinced that the juice is not worth the squeeze. The measured group sizes were better from the amp but not very much. I would argue they looked exactly the same but the micrometer measurement gave the amp the win. I still have my bottle of templac but never use it. I wait till I have all my brass of a cartridge fired, then I anneal in one batch of 100 cases. I measure my flame
Length with a metal ruler, adjust the time to just starting to glow (lights off). Then I run the whole batch while monitoring to make sure the flame does not change. My groups are good and my loads are more consistent than my shooting ability to see a difference. I'll spend that money saved on other toys like thermal night vision equipment and suppressors.

 

[nksmfamjp]

I use Tempilaq, but I think I will stop and go for first glow.

 

[Mikecr]

The object of all this is NOT to full anneal, but to relieve excess stress.
That is, to leave enough elasticity so that cartridge brass is still that.

IMO, the simplest process to do this right(and not full anneal) is dip annealing. Salt bath.
It really leaves no way to get it wrong, and it's inexpensive.

 

[WapitiBob]

I used a torch in a dark room for years, with success, right up until I didn't. I ruined 50 pieces of brass last week; turned the necks to rubber. .005 neck tension and after seating the bullet with the press I can push the bullet down into the case with my finger tip. Yea, it was my fault; "I'll just go a little longer this time". A friend has an AMP so I'll be using that in the future.

 

[QuietTexan]

4. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL, maintain consistent heat output. Measure the flame temp. Why does nobody measure flame temp from one session to the next? Everything else is irrelevant if you'd not setting your flame the same way emery time.

I'll stipulate the reasoning behind your theory to continue the discussion. Practical time - what tool to use?

I'll admit that my only thermocouple experience is diesel exhausts, can you put one into a MAPP or propane flame directly? Seems like the temps are going to be 3000+*f inside the flame, that's well beyond the 1600-2000*F reading ranges I'm used to.

 

[justinp61]

I used a torch in a dark room for years, with success, right up until I didn't. I ruined 50 pieces of brass last week; turned the necks to rubber. .005 neck tension and after seating the bullet with the press I can push the bullet down into the case with my finger tip. Yea, it was my fault; "I'll just go a little longer this time". A friend has an AMP so I'll be using that in the future.

I did the same thing yesterday, 50 pcs of Remington 260 brass. I tried something different, turned the lights off on the end of my shop where I was working and heated until I saw a hint of orange. All 50 pcs had soft necks. I had some junk brass I could've used as a test and like an idiot I didn't. I went back to my normal routine on the next 50 and they turned out like they should.

It's not a huge loss, I bought the brass used years ago and it has an unknown number of firings. Several out of the batch had already been culled for loose primer pockets. It just makes me mad that I was stupid enough to try something different on such a large scale, lesson learned.

 

[Mikecr]

Using flame for our [partial annealing] need never made sense. Flame way exceeds [Full annealing] temp, all the way to burning zinc out of the alloy. Yeah I know it can be done & well, but it's probably the most difficult way conceived (to do right) for OUR use.
I started with dip annealing (with lead) back in the 70s, and just stayed with it. Until salt bath, it was the easiest path to right annealing.

A key matter in this is that reloaders should not ever full anneal.
I get the impression that many do not understand this, and are easily misdirected about it.

 

[daniel_k_malloy]

I used a torch in a dark room for years, with success, right up until I didn't. I ruined 50 pieces of brass last week; turned the necks to rubber. .005 neck tension and after seating the bullet with the press I can push the bullet down into the case with my finger tip. Yea, it was my fault; "I'll just go a little longer this time". A friend has an AMP so I'll be using that in the future.

I wonder... so long as your case heads weren't compromised, couldn't you just harden them back up a bit by running them through an FL die, then a mandrel a couple of times? Stretch them a bit back and forth and they outta be good to go, no?

 

[rsbhunter]

Ok, this is being discussed on alot of forums lately... The chart at the bottom shows the temps that it takes to anneal cartridge brass (approximately 70/30 ratio). 750° does NOT anneal brass, unless you keep it that temp for waaay to long. Watch "Reese at the range" videos and the Eric Cortina videos on youtube. Then watch "DIY induction annealer" . for approx 250.00 , you can have an induction annealer that will be accurate, and repeatable. Reading about annealing is a long read, I've been doing it! But, I do believe that the 750° method is not annealing, or "grain realignment". Just my .02.....rsbhunter

 

[asd9055]

After watching Erik Cortina purposely try to destroy brass on a flame annealer then accurately test and compare neck tension with the new amp digital arbor press also made by Amp where he compared his normal "heat till the case just begins to glow" to leave the case in the fire as long as the machine will allow. They didn't melt
But they turned cherry red half way down the case. Dead soft? Yes sure but they still had decent neck tension. No, he didn't shoot them, that would be risky and stupid. However, still I began to think time and temp is not so critical as I was led to believe it's consistency that's most important. When he compared his precision amp annealed brass to his low precision flame anneal groups at 1000 yards with his F-class rifle, I was convinced that the juice is not worth the squeeze. The measured group sizes were better from the amp but not very much. I would argue they looked exactly the same but the micrometer measurement gave the amp the win. I still have my bottle of templac but never use it. I wait till I have all my brass of a cartridge fired, then I anneal in one batch of 100 cases. I measure my flame
Length with a metal ruler, adjust the time to just starting to glow (lights off). Then I run the whole batch while monitoring to make sure the flame does not change. My groups are good and my loads are more consistent than my shooting ability to see a difference. I'll spend that money saved on other toys like thermal night vision equipment and suppressors.

The difficult part is to distinguish between "sharing knowledge" videos and "infomercials". Lately I tend to view a lot of EC videos as inofmercials but I am the suspicious type!