AMP Annealer VS No annealing Vs Torch Head Annealer Vs 2nd/3rd Shot

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by jdmecomber, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. graywolf

    graywolf Well-Known Member

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    I have a GAP 6.5 SAUM and I won’t use the Hornady brass ever again. Two different batches, 200 pieces, and the primer pockets on 90% of them were too loose to reload after a single firing. I prep Norma 7SAUM brass now, more expensive initially but cheaper and more consistent in the long run.
     
  2. CaptnC

    CaptnC Well-Known Member

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    While we are pointing out the short comings of brass. I was zeroing the 6.5-06 for 100 yard shots. The wife's rifle and she only shoots to a feederived 100 yes away. I was using mixed brass but same powder charge. The mix was Remington and Federal. Every single Federal case I had loaded leaked very slightly around the primer. No loose primers, but there was a little soot around all of them.

    Ended up pulling the bullets re-wieghted all the charges...spot on so I loaded them into Remington cases and pitched all the Federal cases in my scrap brass bucket.

    Charges are in the upper end, but not showing any signs of pressure on the Remington brass.

    The amount of trash around the flash hole and the soot around the primers...enough Federal for me. I remember my dad hated it when I was a kid. He wouldn't even pick it up...

    Hornady brass is laying around everywhere at the range I shoot at. They don't seem to mind us picking up brass...so as long as the price is this good (free) I will keep picking it up.
     
  3. Autorotate

    Autorotate Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for posting the results of this test.
     
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  4. jdmecomber

    jdmecomber Official LRH Sponsor

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    Lapua brass test complete:

    Group one was Amp Annealed after every firing and Group 2 was Amp annealed after the second firing.

    Group 1 and Group 2 started with ammo already loaded that was Amp annealed with 3x fired each. Headspace is .002, no neck turning, .004 neck tension, the brass was not cleaned at all during the entire test. The sizing was done with a neck sizing die only. Forester die, press and primer seating. The brass was trimmed every shot if it needed it or not, chamfer, deburred and primers were removed by a decapping die.

    Group 1 Amp Annealed every shot

    First Firing
    1. 2891 AVG 2887
    2. 2882 SD 5
    3. 2885 ES 12
    4. 2894
    5. 2884
    Second Firing
    1. 2886 AVG 2892
    2. 2896 SD 10
    3. 2886 ES 24
    4. 2908
    5. 2884
    Third Firing
    1. 2888 AVG 2890
    2. 2989 SD 2
    3. 2891 ES 7
    4. 2895
    5. 2889
    Fourth Firing
    1. 2899 AVG 2893
    2. 2892 SD 5
    3. 2885 ES 14
    4. 2896
    5. 2896

    Group 2
    First firing NO annealing, 2nd Firing NO annealing, 3rd firing AMP annealed, 4th No annealing

    First firing No annealing
    1. 2904 AVG 2892
    2. 2892 SD 7
    3. 2889 ES 22
    4. 2882
    5. 2893
    Second firing No Annealing
    1. 2893 AVG 2889
    2. 2886 SD 6
    3. 2879 ES 16
    4. 2893
    5. 2895
    Third Firing AMP annealed
    1. 2886 AVG 2890
    2. 2889 SD 6
    3. 2898 ES 14
    4. 2896
    5. 2884
    Fourth Firing No Annealing
    1. 2903 AVG 2885
    2. 2882 SD 11
    3. 2889 ES 29
    4. 2879
    5. 2874

    This Lapua brass only lasted 7x fired. I am assuming it's because of the neck sizing die. I switched over to Full length sizing with bushings last month but already had the neck sizing die ready to go and since this brass wasn't neck turned. The neck die was the only one I had a bushing for to get close to .002 neck tension. If someone can comment on case life and neck sizing, I would like to hear some other data on it. Maybe Hornady isn't that bad :)


    Back to the test results:
    Group 1

    Annealing after every shot is the winner again. I had one higher velocity shot at 2908 FPS

    ES 12,24,7,14
    SD 5,10,2,5

    Group 2
    ES 22,16,14,29
    SD 7,6,6,11


    What I will be doing is using an annealer after every shot. The turntable annealer I had did very well for the price. I think I paid 275$ for it. To pay 4x more for the AMP, that is for you to decide. I think for the money, the Annealeez could be the best bang for the buck for a hunter/steel challenge guy. I think if I was to compete with the benchrest/FClass crowd, I would want the amp.



    To give my targets a little plug, here is a discount code for 15% off RX18
    https://www.boxtobenchprecision.com/store/100-yard-target

    We have 5 new targets coming out soon. I will do a new thread about that.

    Happy Shooting
    Joseph Mecomber
    Box to Bench Precision, LLC
     
  5. jdmecomber

    jdmecomber Official LRH Sponsor

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    Lapua at 7x
     

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  6. phorwath

    phorwath Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the additional testing and reporting.

    Something about your .243 chamber and/or resizing die is working the casings pretty hard.

    In spite of that, I can't think of an explanation for the Hornady cases separating and blowing out halfway up the sidewalls. If I ever experience that, at least I'll know who to call for an explanation as to the cause. HORNADY! :)
     
  7. jdmecomber

    jdmecomber Official LRH Sponsor

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    Oh. I had expander ball in the die the entire time. ?
     
  8. tbrice23

    tbrice23 Well-Known Member

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    Man I don't know???

    I have Winchester 300WM cases fired 10 (ten) times full length sized and torch annealed 8 out of 10 firings with no hint case body failure, I even bisect a case once in a while to visually inspect. 20150716_143402_001-2.jpg I am on my eighth firing on Norma 6AI brass FLS and annealed every firing with no such indication.

    I mean no disrespect but is there any possibility you could be over annealing.
     
  9. jdmecomber

    jdmecomber Official LRH Sponsor

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    None taken, I am here to learn also. I might agree with you but the group that wasn't annealed at all, failed the same time as the annealed brass.
     
  10. Barrelnut

    Barrelnut Well-Known Member

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    I'm with Phorwath, there may be an issue with your chamber. I may be big in the body area. Have never seen new Hornady (or any) brass split in the body like that. Now your Lapua brass is only going 7 firings...

    Are you just bumping the shoulders back .002 or so when you FL size? I assume you are.

    The Lapua brass may be thinning at the web so fast because the die is squeezing so much brass up toward the neck on each firing. it is squeezing so much toward the neck, because the chamber is allowing the case to swell so much. Make sense?

    Also how much were you having to trim the necks on that Lapua brass? The brass that thins at the web, ends up being trimmed off at the neck. Thats the way I understand it anyway.
     
  11. jdmecomber

    jdmecomber Official LRH Sponsor

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    I am only bumping .002 and neck sizing. There was .004 neck tension. So that's double from my normal .002, I will take some measurements and double check everything tomorrow.

    I did notice when I trimmed that I was getting some growth in the brass.
     
  12. Rinky

    Rinky Member

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    Just so everyone is aware, my case failed from a factory box of 243 ammo in a 243 Ackley chamber after 1 firing in the exact same spot the OP had issues with at 5 firings. Seems too coincidental to ignore to me. Here's 1 case next to the other. Same box of ammo.
     

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  13. jdmecomber

    jdmecomber Official LRH Sponsor

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    I am going to do another quick test tomorrow because I am curious why this brass isn't lasting. I think the first test I will do is take off the expander ball and shoot a couple cases until they fail. I will also recheck some measurements.
     
  14. phorwath

    phorwath Well-Known Member

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    Something is amiss. That extra case trimming you mentioned every firing of the case. I think you might be setting the shoulder back further than your measurements.

    If not that, the chamber is large in diameter compared to the resizing die. BUT I thought you said you were using a neck sizing die only, and not a full length sizing die? A neck sizing die should not be reducing the OD of the case body. It should only be resizing the case necks. Which takes us back to setting the shoulders back excessively. The other member that posted from your company seemed to take offense at my prior Post suggesting this. So I left well enough alone. But your Lapua cases should last longer than 7 reloads, in my most humble opinion (that humble part doesn't really exist).

    I've read where others believe the expanding ball can stretch casings forward after they've been resized. You're annealing the case necks so that should reduce the odds of that being the culprit. I've not experienced that myself, so I'm not speaking from any experience. But I've read about the expanding balls being blamed for problems enough times that I toss it out there for thought...

    If you find anything amiss - I'd like to know. I'm here to learn too.

    As far as the Hornady case failures, I have not a clue or explanation for those other than they sent you some of the $hittie$t brass in the whole world. Maybe a disgruntled Hornady employee grabbed some rejects from the bone yard and shipped them out? Those are flat out bad. I'll be avoiding Hornady casings for a good while. Maybe forever... however long that is for me anyhow... :eek:
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018