Alamo Precision?

APR_Shooter

New Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Messages
4
Location
Texas
Was just made aware of this thread, and again, against my better judgement feel like it needs a response so folks can see "the whole story".

John 264 - I remember our conversation very well. First, we both know that the gun was not ever meant to be a "PRS" gun. The customer chose the components he wanted on the build, just like every other customer does. We are kind of up to speed on what constitutes a PRS rig, as several of the top 10 shooters in the nation have been fielding our work for the past few years.

When you contacted me with this issue, the first thing I asked was what you had done to "determine" there was an issue, so we could establish a baseline. At that point you had fired exactly one brand and type of ammo(maybe even the same lot?) and the gun didn't seem to like it. No trying other ammo, no trying another optic or any of the other normal protocols that would be SOP for determining there was an actual issue.

Next you did indeed point out that there was uneven lug contact. When I asked if you determined that with the trigger and fire control removed, you told me no. I'm going to tell you here just like I did on the phone that you can't make that determination by coloring the lugs with a sharpie/dykem and going to town. Especially with the fire control system still in play. The bolt has to have clearance in the raceway for it to function, right? Let's call it .006" simply because it actually IS on that action. We have the lugs on one end and a trigger on the other, right? Guess what happens with that .006" clearance when that trigger pushes up on the opposite end of the bolt? Most likely the top lug is going to come off face. Of course that is not an issue when the pressure is taken off the bolt by the trigger during actual firing sequence, since the bolt will go back to it's center and lugs will come into alignment as intended. Now knowing all that and using a little common sense and also knowing that a bolt is often cycled far more than it is actually fired, it's pretty obvious as to why the bottom lug would actually show more wear.

And the bedding...........You did indeed say the bedding was bad and not "how you do it". When I asked you to clarify, you said it didn't extend past the lug......you like a couple inches forward of that. Ok, I'm not going to argue your method and didn't on the phone either. I'm not sure there is one single "right" way to do it as I've seen many work. I'm sure yours is wonderful. I will say our method which is the same as many other precision builders does not carry forward of the recoil lug for several obvious reasons. Harmonics being altered by thermal expansion being the main one. I would be curious as to how you concluded the .010" stress was present? Our method does not rely on screws or anything else to force the action out of it's neutral positioning in the bedding compound. That said, I can still force it to show error on an indicator if I set the test up improperly.

I'm truly sorry you got the impression of us you did on the phone. I must admit the constant reference to your "20 years of experience" during our conversation probably did have me somewhat frustrated as I found myself having to explain these very basic concepts to someone at that level. We try very hard to provide a product and service that exceeds our customers expectations. We mostly succeed, but sometimes fall short. Given the chance, we'll make it right 100% of the time. Guys like you make that task harder by diagnosing "issues" that you clearly don't understand or haven't done your due diligence in isolating all the variables.

Sorry to be on here posting in a "defensive" position. I completely understand that not everyone is going to like our product or service. That's just life and business. I usually refrain from commenting on these threads altogether. But when someone posts something about us that is false or only half the story on a public forum, I feel it warrants a response.
 

bdlesh

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2019
Messages
222
Location
texas
Was just made aware of this thread, and again, against my better judgement feel like it needs a response so folks can see "the whole story".

John 264 - I remember our conversation very well. First, we both know that the gun was not ever meant to be a "PRS" gun. The customer chose the components he wanted on the build, just like every other customer does. We are kind of up to speed on what constitutes a PRS rig, as several of the top 10 shooters in the nation have been fielding our work for the past few years.

When you contacted me with this issue, the first thing I asked was what you had done to "determine" there was an issue, so we could establish a baseline. At that point you had fired exactly one brand and type of ammo(maybe even the same lot?) and the gun didn't seem to like it. No trying other ammo, no trying another optic or any of the other normal protocols that would be SOP for determining there was an actual issue.

Next you did indeed point out that there was uneven lug contact. When I asked if you determined that with the trigger and fire control removed, you told me no. I'm going to tell you here just like I did on the phone that you can't make that determination by coloring the lugs with a sharpie/dykem and going to town. Especially with the fire control system still in play. The bolt has to have clearance in the raceway for it to function, right? Let's call it .006" simply because it actually IS on that action. We have the lugs on one end and a trigger on the other, right? Guess what happens with that .006" clearance when that trigger pushes up on the opposite end of the bolt? Most likely the top lug is going to come off face. Of course that is not an issue when the pressure is taken off the bolt by the trigger during actual firing sequence, since the bolt will go back to it's center and lugs will come into alignment as intended. Now knowing all that and using a little common sense and also knowing that a bolt is often cycled far more than it is actually fired, it's pretty obvious as to why the bottom lug would actually show more wear.

And the bedding...........You did indeed say the bedding was bad and not "how you do it". When I asked you to clarify, you said it didn't extend past the lug......you like a couple inches forward of that. Ok, I'm not going to argue your method and didn't on the phone either. I'm not sure there is one single "right" way to do it as I've seen many work. I'm sure yours is wonderful. I will say our method which is the same as many other precision builders does not carry forward of the recoil lug for several obvious reasons. Harmonics being altered by thermal expansion being the main one. I would be curious as to how you concluded the .010" stress was present? Our method does not rely on screws or anything else to force the action out of it's neutral positioning in the bedding compound. That said, I can still force it to show error on an indicator if I set the test up improperly.

I'm truly sorry you got the impression of us you did on the phone. I must admit the constant reference to your "20 years of experience" during our conversation probably did have me somewhat frustrated as I found myself having to explain these very basic concepts to someone at that level. We try very hard to provide a product and service that exceeds our customers expectations. We mostly succeed, but sometimes fall short. Given the chance, we'll make it right 100% of the time. Guys like you make that task harder by diagnosing "issues" that you clearly don't understand or haven't done your due diligence in isolating all the variables.

Sorry to be on here posting in a "defensive" position. I completely understand that not everyone is going to like our product or service. That's just life and business. I usually refrain from commenting on these threads altogether. But when someone posts something about us that is false or only half the story on a public forum, I feel it warrants a response.
Tha is for explaining this. Everything you said makes sense to me....and I have no experience in gun manufacturing. I am in the home remodeling business and hear all the time how my way isnt the right way to do things. I will fully admit I do not know everything. I have been in this business for over 40 years and learn something nee everyday. I dont live far from you and will have to drop by. I am going to attempt to build a rifle and want someone that's knows what they are doing to do the important thing.....and then bring it back to you to fix my blunders.
 

LaHunter

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
495
Location
N.E. Louisiana
I have a M700 223 Rem that APR built the barreled action for me. I did the bedding myself in an HS precision stock. This rifle is incredibly accurate with factory ammo. The Cerakote application was perfect as well. These guys are good to deal with and communication was great.

I have my M700 7mm rem mag with them now getting a new barrel installed.

I definately recommend them.
 

waspocrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
795
APR is great- they built my brother’s 7RM and it’s a fantastic shooter, even with factory ammunition.
 

John 264

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2019
Messages
104
Location
Texas
yes I do have 20+ years of experience building rifles... and I apologize for questioning your engineer degree I thought that someone with a degree would understand how a rifle works and the relation of the bolt lugs and the reciever lug seat being square with each other and having proper lug contact so the bolt doesn't rock back under recoil... the only way to properly test your bolt play is with the trigger in the rifle.. im assuming what you are meaning by the trigger "pushing up on the bolt" you are talking about the tension between th he sear and the cocking piece holding the firing pin in the cocked position... that still doesnt explain why your bolt had almost zero contact on one lug... anyone that builds quality rifles knows that you need as close to 100% contact as you can... but i guess your rifles are that good that they only need 70% contact on 1 lug.
 

Thomas Culver

Active Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
34
I’ve had mine for about 2 years. The rifle shoots better than I can and is by far the best looking rifle in my safe. I added a MCS-CS to it last spring and gave it to my son for his first rifle, even though I shoot it lore than he does. Saving to order my next build from them, a 6.5SST with a 20” carbon barrel. I have no hesitation doing business with them and have been completely pleased with their customer service before, during, and after the build.

Pics of the rifle and my son’s first time shooting it at 300 yards. I was able to hit 3 out of 5 shots at 1000 the first time I was able to shoot that far. The rifle definitely does it’s part.
 

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APR_Shooter

New Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Messages
4
Location
Texas
yes I do have 20+ years of experience building rifles... and I apologize for questioning your engineer degree I thought that someone with a degree would understand how a rifle works and the relation of the bolt lugs and the reciever lug seat being square with each other and having proper lug contact so the bolt doesn't rock back under recoil... the only way to properly test your bolt play is with the trigger in the rifle.. im assuming what you are meaning by the trigger "pushing up on the bolt" you are talking about the tension between th he sear and the cocking piece holding the firing pin in the cocked position... that still doesnt explain why your bolt had almost zero contact on one lug... anyone that builds quality rifles knows that you need as close to 100% contact as you can... but i guess your rifles are that good that they only need 70% contact on 1 lug.
John,

I don't know how engineering degrees got brought into the conversation, certainly not by me. I'm not an engineer. That said, we're talking pretty simple physics here and you have me intrigued as to how you are getting around it. Your reference to the sear exerting upwards pressure onto the cocking piece is something we both agree on, correct? If the lug abutments are machined square to the axis of the receiver, and the lugs themselves are machined square to a straight bolt body there should be no issues in regards to the mating surfaces............when all bias is removed(like the upward sear pressure that goes away when you pull the trigger).

There is always going to be some misalignment of the lugs when in the cocked position. That amount will vary depending on the amount of clearance spec'd between the bolt and its raceway. Doesn't really matter because the misalignment is gone the instant the trigger is pulled.

I assume your method is to "lap" the lugs with the fire control system in place, thus giving you the warm fuzzies that everything is "perfect" by the amount of wear you see on the lug surfaces? If so, how do you address the boltface that was just taken out of alignment by doing that? I mean you can't just throw it in your 4 jaw and re-face it at the angle you just induced. How are you qualifying the surface areas you are "correcting"?

If your method is correct, then every custom action manufacturer that builds 2-lug actions is wrong. Unless they have a top lug that is longer than the bottom lug......which I don't see happening.
 

jpope02

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2012
Messages
125
Was just made aware of this thread, and again, against my better judgement feel like it needs a response so folks can see "the whole story".

John 264 - I remember our conversation very well. First, we both know that the gun was not ever meant to be a "PRS" gun. The customer chose the components he wanted on the build, just like every other customer does. We are kind of up to speed on what constitutes a PRS rig, as several of the top 10 shooters in the nation have been fielding our work for the past few years.

When you contacted me with this issue, the first thing I asked was what you had done to "determine" there was an issue, so we could establish a baseline. At that point you had fired exactly one brand and type of ammo(maybe even the same lot?) and the gun didn't seem to like it. No trying other ammo, no trying another optic or any of the other normal protocols that would be SOP for determining there was an actual issue.

Next you did indeed point out that there was uneven lug contact. When I asked if you determined that with the trigger and fire control removed, you told me no. I'm going to tell you here just like I did on the phone that you can't make that determination by coloring the lugs with a sharpie/dykem and going to town. Especially with the fire control system still in play. The bolt has to have clearance in the raceway for it to function, right? Let's call it .006" simply because it actually IS on that action. We have the lugs on one end and a trigger on the other, right? Guess what happens with that .006" clearance when that trigger pushes up on the opposite end of the bolt? Most likely the top lug is going to come off face. Of course that is not an issue when the pressure is taken off the bolt by the trigger during actual firing sequence, since the bolt will go back to it's center and lugs will come into alignment as intended. Now knowing all that and using a little common sense and also knowing that a bolt is often cycled far more than it is actually fired, it's pretty obvious as to why the bottom lug would actually show more wear.

And the bedding...........You did indeed say the bedding was bad and not "how you do it". When I asked you to clarify, you said it didn't extend past the lug......you like a couple inches forward of that. Ok, I'm not going to argue your method and didn't on the phone either. I'm not sure there is one single "right" way to do it as I've seen many work. I'm sure yours is wonderful. I will say our method which is the same as many other precision builders does not carry forward of the recoil lug for several obvious reasons. Harmonics being altered by thermal expansion being the main one. I would be curious as to how you concluded the .010" stress was present? Our method does not rely on screws or anything else to force the action out of it's neutral positioning in the bedding compound. That said, I can still force it to show error on an indicator if I set the test up improperly.

I'm truly sorry you got the impression of us you did on the phone. I must admit the constant reference to your "20 years of experience" during our conversation probably did have me somewhat frustrated as I found myself having to explain these very basic concepts to someone at that level. We try very hard to provide a product and service that exceeds our customers expectations. We mostly succeed, but sometimes fall short. Given the chance, we'll make it right 100% of the time. Guys like you make that task harder by diagnosing "issues" that you clearly don't understand or haven't done your due diligence in isolating all the variables.

Sorry to be on here posting in a "defensive" position. I completely understand that not everyone is going to like our product or service. That's just life and business. I usually refrain from commenting on these threads altogether. But when someone posts something about us that is false or only half the story on a public forum, I feel it warrants a response.
If John264 has 20 years of gunsmith experience, why didn't he build his own rifle?
 

John 264

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2019
Messages
104
Location
Texas
If John264 has 20 years of gunsmith experience, why didn't he build his own rifle?
I do build all of my own rifles I would not and have not ever owned a Alamo precision I have worked on them they are just a semi production rifle I would not own one
 

LaHunter

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
495
Location
N.E. Louisiana
I do build all of my own rifles I would not and have not ever owned a Alamo precision I have worked on them they are just a semi production rifle I would not own one
Can you be specific about what makes an Alamo Precision Rifle a 'semi production' rifle? What is your definition of a semi production rifle? What is your definition of a custom rifle?
 

John 264

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2019
Messages
104
Location
Texas
Can you be specific about what makes an Alamo Precision Rifle a 'semi production' rifle? What is your definition of a semi production rifle? What is your definition of a custom rifle?
I was told by a gentleman at Alamo precision that they make a thousand or more rifles a year that is a semi production rifle they can't begin to build with the attention to the very fine details of a true custom rifle like making sure the receiver threads are single point cut to be concentric with the bolt raceway ,the receiver lugs are trued ,and the receiver face is trued, the recoil lug is pinned, the bolt lugs are trued, the bolt face is trued, install M16 extractor if the customer requests it and side bolt release and bush the firing pin hole and turn down the firing pin, type of crown, muzzle brake
now the stock you start with a good fit and then stress free bedding where you can eliminate stress on the action now you need to fit the stock to the customer IE. length of pull finger grooves ajustable comb type of finish recoil pad
 

John 264

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2019
Messages
104
Location
Texas
I was told by a gentleman at Alamo precision that they make a thousand or more rifles a year that is a semi production rifle they can't begin to build with the attention to the very fine details of a true custom rifle like making sure the receiver threads are single point cut to be concentric with the bolt raceway ,the receiver lugs are trued ,and the receiver face is trued, the recoil lug is pinned, the bolt lugs are trued, the bolt face is trued, install M16 extractor if the customer requests it and side bolt release and bush the firing pin hole and turn down the firing pin, type of crown, muzzle brake
now the stock you start with a good fit and then stress free bedding where you can eliminate stress on the action now you need to fit the stock to the customer IE. length of pull finger grooves ajustable comb type of finish recoil pad
that's what makes a true custom, we also do barrel break in and load development and we install trigger tech and Jewell and timney triggers and set to customer speculation
 

LaHunter

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
495
Location
N.E. Louisiana
I don't know how many rifles they make in a given time frame. I know from personal experience, that they built the exact rifles for me that I spec'd out. I bought all of my components and shipped to them. They built the rifle exactly how we agreed on. At the end of the day, mine have been very accurate and performed perfectly. Also, I don't need or want my rifle builder to develop my load, I do that myself. That is part of the fun and learning process of having a new rifle, in my opinion.

You may be making some assumptions on their rifle building that may not be accurate.
 

John 264

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2019
Messages
104
Location
Texas
I don't know how many rifles they make in a given time frame. I know from personal experience, that they built the exact rifles for me that I spec'd out. I bought all of my components and shipped to them. They built the rifle exactly how we agreed on. At the end of the day, mine have been very accurate and performed perfectly. Also, I don't need or want my rifle builder to develop my load, I do that myself. That is part of the fun and learning process of having a new rifle, in my opinion.

You may be making some assumptions on their rifle building that may not be accurate.
as long as you are happy
 

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