A race to the bottom

[Edd]

..... Now everyone specializes and there are less and less that can do everything In there craft. Everyone is in a hurry and expects to be an expert in a few months or years at something that will take a lifetime to learn. (And even then, they will still be learning when they lay down there tools)......

I was once told that a Specialist was someone that learned more and more about less and less and that, if you wanted to be the best you could be, you would learn everything about nothing.

 

[bigngreen]

We are only one lawsuit away from prefits going away! I believe the market is good because standards have lowered to reflect the cost, we see it everyday on here now, my prefits shot this group but we no longer see hardly anyone shooting beyond a 100 yards to prove it nor are we seeing cold bore shots, the standards used to be actual long range and the important shot was coldbore being in the group.
Guys put a LOT of faith in marketing, I have never just bedded a barreled action into a Manners stock and not had to modify the stock in a mill then touch up paint, I've rejected quite a few barrels.
It goes bang is now the new standard for greatness, how good a gun shoots is now directly related to how cheep it was, I have take of barrels that were completely unacceptable 5 years ago I could put back on and guys would be falling over themselves to buy!!
The same guys who rail about buying American are in love with their barrels made from steel from China they just don't want to hear that they are saving 100 dollars on a barrel because its import steel.

 

[bigngreen]

Defiance is talking about shouldered prefits not barrel nuts. The problem with the shouldered trend is people think they don't have to check anything and just torque it in and call it a day.

The number of actions I've had to fix because some guy pounded the lugs back is stupid, if they would have just spin on a barrel it would not have come close to headspacing. I've scrapped better than a dozen action guys had no clue they had ruined.

 

[liv4thehunt]

As long as these "custom cnc builders" keep sending out customs with 1/2 moa groups that have never been fired there will always be work for customer builders. I had 3 come through my shop last year, all from well know cnc builders in Utah. One wouldn't chamber a round. The second had 4 jaw imprints inside the barrel on the muzzle end ( shot 3" groups). The third blew the primers out of factory 28 Nosler brass (3 different boxes). Obviously they were never even test fired! That seems to be some what of a liability issue. All the custom builders I know including myself not only test fire their builds, but also verify groups. 90 percent of the groups fired from these new cnc customs were fired from a test gun. Accuracy isn't free. Ask a bench rest shooter how many pre-fits he owns on untouched actions.

 

[smokepoler]

In my experience and from what I've seen, pre-fits are for those that are satisfied with what used to be better than average. Now it's the norm. Buy a Savage, change out the barrel and If it shoots 3/4" at 100 yards or can whack steel at 500 somewhere on a ten inch target, they're happy. Call it progress. I call it instant gratification with boredom setting in shortly thereafter and the quest for another pre-fit.
You want precision and extreme accuracy at long ranges, better hire a good gunsmith or be one. He will check the action's dimensions, parallelism, threads and machining before the chamber job even starts YMMV.

 

[Tangent]

Options are good.

I don't like wasting time worrying about what other people do/don't do or like/dislike.

My gunsmith is also a machinist. Spun up a proof barrel onto a custom action & threaded barrel for ~$400. I bolted it to a manners and it shoots 1/2 moa with factory ammo. I'm not gonna whine about that, haha.

 

[jkwright]

For every story about a factory rifle that wont shoot or prefit barrel thats junk there is also a story about a smith that put out junk, missed their deadline by a year or never returned a gun. Some smiths are real craftsman and good honest people that deserve respect and all the business they can handle. Others are not. For the people that have smiths they know and trust thats great. For the people that dont having other options is a wonderful thing.

 

[shortgrass]

"Spin one up/Spun one up",, the new catch phrase........

 

[shortgrass]

Heck, I have '98 Mausers that wear custom barrels and custom wood that'll hold 1/2" consistently. Most likely I paid more for the English Walnut and Circissian blanks than a Manners or Mc synthetic

 

[CNC Apps Guy]

I'm an Applications Engineer for a company that sells high end CNC Machines. The machines' ways are still hand scraped for fit as they were in the beginning. Shims are not the same.

I believe there will always be a market for the discriminating customer, just like there will always be a market for a master gunsmith. The overall need may shrink due to manufacturing methods improvement and closer tolerances being held at factories but, the need will remain because not everyone is capable of building a Rifle even though high quality parts are readily available.

JM2CFWIW YMMV

 

[NDAR15MAN]

Not trying to make any one mad here but i had a bad experience with well know gunsmith / barrel gun maker. I think it is great that you can buy a gun off the rack Now for $900.00 that shoots just as good or better than the $3000.00 rifle And what is really good it's under a written warranty. If it does not shoot 1 inch or less as they say in writing send it back. You don't have to have your lawyer write a $200.00 threating letter to the custom builder to force them stand behind their work. NOW FOR THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN .... It's all about working with a manufacture that has state of the art Equipment. Not a Gunsmith that is a pizza deliver man 40 hrs a week and then puts on 2 scope rings a week. It is sad to say that state of the art Equipment and knowledge on how to use that state of the art Equipment by the owner out trumps talented employees. I have seen it so many times the last 43 years as a Manufacturing Manager. As Soon as Management can hire a button pusher to run the lathe or Mill to make your gun barrel or action or car they will. This includes me , at 60 I am being replaced by computer that tracks productivity per employee and bathroom door that employee has to use his badge to get in to use toilet. If you use bathroom to many times a day then Owner / Plant Mgr says will you must be sick you need to go home.
More money can be spent on new machines that will do a better quality job , sure not more employees that cost $60,000 a year with benefits on average in my business. Marty

 

[Ol' Red]

We all win when tolerances get tighter, standards are raised, etc... But I think more and more are building guns today than ever, and they are not starting out with CNC equipment, takes a lot of money upfront. I think there will always be a place for smaller smiths who put out products at reasonable prices. I think these guys are what keeps pricing in check also. Plus we all have different accuracy standards, and the internet skews this big time, we are all shooting the most accurate rifles made and our smith is top tier.
If it all came down to cnc shops, where is the attraction, pricing, turn around times, accuracy, aesthetics? CNC is capital, it needs to run to generate revenue. There is quite a bit that goes into running a successful operation, some older smiths who refuse to change may get pushed aside, but there is replacements, it's the cycle of life. Prices will not drop, if X shop can get this much in labor for his product, which I feel is no better than mine, why shouldn't I up my prices some and prosper more?
We as a society tend to take the paths of least resistance, and instant gratification, but there are always trade offs.
This may be an unfair comparison, but Payless shoes had one heck of a business model, good products(not top shelf) at cheap prices, and they survived for yrs. But when people can get the same product delivered to your door for not much more, the writing was on the wall. Why leave the house for a buck savings.
My smith has a full time job, yet offers a solid product at great prices. I shouldn't say this, but he lacks some finesse in fit and finish, but one can work around that with pre-painted drop in stocks like Manners, or others. My expectations in looks have changed over the yrs, and it is not for the better, I just need a product that looks nice and shoots way better, and it is 6 miles from my house. And we have an understanding concerning my impatience, if I green light wait times, he utilizes it fully, if he knows I am anxious, the rifle gets completed.
IMO, there will always be a place for new smiths, circumstances dictate that someone will be willing to give them a shot, it becomes on them to produce results.

Is your smith north or south of Gillette? Just curious.

 

[BrentM]

Lots of people go the route of diy due to their bad experiences with smiths. That is why I began doing my own. To each their own but I don't see anything going down hill as far as quality and results.

 

[BrentM]

I guess I really would want to hear the reasoning behind that suggestion, if it goes deeper than they must feel you can't thread the barrel into the reciever........or maybe you can't possibly headspace it youself. Wonder what the charge is to do it for you?

Probably because someone out there will not check the headspace thinking they are fine. It's better to have blanket statement