A question about dialing in MILS.

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by WildBillG, Oct 16, 2019.


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  1. dfanonymous

    dfanonymous Well-Known Member

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    If I understand you correctly..
    If you have .05 mrad clicks (your turret values) then two clicks will bring you to .1 mil and 3 clicks with bring you to .15 mils. 2 clicks to dial a .1 mil if that’s how the scopes turrets are made.

    Edit: if forgot that Zeiss does this.
    So does March.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  2. Core781

    Core781 Well-Known Member

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    It's basic math to figure out your scope's increments at 100m given that it's a MIL based scope. The manual will explain which MIL increments the scope adjusts. Secondly most manufacturer's offer free scope specific software or at least a ballistic card that explains the scope's adjustments at range and the reticle increments.

    I purchased my first MIL scope since my military days, and was happily back to thinking in meters. The PITA issues arise from ranging in MOA's/yards/feet/inches. I have been using meters for years because my carbines have meter irons, and boy they are accurate, and inspire confidence versus trying to think in yards. Yards to meters is insignificant out to carbine distances and the meter's additional length adds up the higher you go. Most scopes have 1/10th MIL or 1/4 MOA. If you compete at shorter distances you need 1/8 MOA or 1/10 MIL, and going further out it becomes more about understanding your data and doping the environment but having more increments helps. I can see a difference in shot placement with a single click of my 1/8 MOA at 50 yards when shooting a 40g .22 if the wind is not vicious. Imagine at 1000 meters!

    The hardest thing for me to remember is that 1/10 MIL is 1cm or 1/100th meter at 100 meters. This is a theoretical assessment of the scope's optical tracking. You need to verify this on both X and Y axis (elevation/windage) on your scope at 100 meters preferably via indoor range where there is no winds. You can use a bore laser to determine when the bore's theoretical POI would align with the scope's theoretical POI. By doing the tracking test you can test the margin of error and gain an understanding of any potential inconsistencies. I like to use a pro grade laser, cm grid paper @ 100 meters, and a heavy rifle sled to keep the rifle anchored. I only touch the turrets.

    I don't know your scope but you may benefit from getting a mount with MOA integrated into it to minimize where you keep your turrets by default. My older scopes have very little adjustment compared to my XTRII, but to get it out to the cartridge's max effective range I need the 20 MOA mount. You can do the basic math to convert to MILs but it's not as important as it's not longer a variable in the applied scheme of things. (only a theoretical variable that's part of the initial setup). If you were shooting at common hunting distances your scope may be better served with a 0 MOA mount. My mount allows me to engage most targets out to the max effective range of my rifle by using the reticle: so I can call distance and windage and fire relatively quickly.

    You should probably get a dope card setup and do a tracking test at 100 meters to verify that it's calibrated as advertised, if not re-dope your data cards. I would not worry unless you get inconsistencies when tracking and that may mean your scope or mount is off if your using the laser method. You can't really track with ammo without doing advanced statistics and wasting lots of ammo: especially if the ammo, rifle or, your marksmanship is sub-par. Which in my case is often the case.. I was surprised that my Burris XTRII reticle tracked balls on at 100 meters with the laser for elevation, and windage. I did not test full range which would probably be more scientific. It would also be a good idea to track my laser out to 500 meters or more to see if there is a loss at distance which I would guess is a given.

    And then once you memorize meters, and centimeters, you can start wasting ammo and working on your skills trying to find aggregates.. It's expensive and on hell of a drug.. I got lucky on my new deer rifle, it hits POA on cold bore at 100 meters. Sadly once it heats up it shoots one to two flyers out 4cm from POA with my factory hunting ammo which is still okay. Someday I'll build up a load that it likes or slap a new barrel on it, rinse and repeat.. I shaved my gas block down a second time, as I found it was too close to the for-end when the barrel was getting warm, so maybe that was the culprit. Need to take it out for a final pre-season sighting. I have never had an AR shoot flyers like this so it's definitely a mechanical issue or ammo issue. I'm guessing gas block with a distant second it's the chamber tolerance not liking the factory ammo. I hand loaded it and it still reproduced the same flyers: so I feel like that ruled out the magazine feed but I imagine the magazine must effect the bullets seating as it feeds but it does not seem to be the mystery X.

    Good luck, I think you will like metric measurement better if you are shooting more than thinking about it. Just think meters and sub increments and you really don't need too much work invested. I initially was perplexed as I converted standard to metric in ranging but I did all the conversion in excell spread-sheets and printed my data out into my log. The more I use it, the easier it is. And the MIL does in fact have less margin of error at longer distances, so that's an argument in its favor when you factor diminishing unknowns as you increase range with minute of angle.
     
  3. skipglo

    skipglo Well-Known Member LRH Team Member

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    Something hugely wrong with that scope...however using your explanation .5 cm=5 mills and I for one have never seen any mrad scope in 5 mill increments
     
  4. dfanonymous

    dfanonymous Well-Known Member

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    Zeiss does or use to do .05 of a mil, i forgot until randomly I remembered. Guess it’s not that weird that swaro would too.
     
  5. J E Custom

    J E Custom Well-Known Member

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    Here is a video that May help.

    https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/understanding-milliradians-mils.227354/

    J E CUSTOM
     
  6. skipglo

    skipglo Well-Known Member LRH Team Member

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    That's better....large difference between .05 and
    .5 but extremely fine adjustment... Good for bench rest I guess
     
  7. Kimber7man

    Kimber7man Well-Known Member LRH Team Member

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    could you snap a picture or two and show us your elevation turret? My S&B dials in .05 increments but is marked every tenth.
     
  8. johnnyk

    johnnyk Well-Known Member

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    cm@100m.jpg
    I understood him to mean his scope adjustments were in cm versus mils, but instead of, like the pic (1cm), his adjustments were .5cm.
    This pic is of a Leupold European 30 model that is currently riding a Browning Bar, here for TLC.
     
  9. dfanonymous

    dfanonymous Well-Known Member

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    .1 mil is .99999 cm at 100m so it’s all semantics

    If the OP does have a .5 mil turret the there’s no way to account for .1/1 cm at 100m with the turrets alone.

    I guess to answer the OPs question directly if it is .5 click value you cannot use the 1 cm value exactly.

    If you’re firing solutions is 1.6 mil in drop at 100m then you would make 3 clicks up or you are zeroing and are 1.6 mils high then you would go 3 clicks down for a total of 1.5 mils moves. The extra .1 mil/cm will have to be accounted for in the reticle or ignored.

    .5 mil increments were made for special purposes, not unknown distance shoots.
     
  10. WildBillG

    WildBillG Well-Known Member

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    KimberZMan I to have one of those Leupold scopes. I am now believing that I should never have mentioned Mils. This scope was probably not meant to be used using the MRAD system at all. My concern was that though marked in half cm at 100m that I may be missing some thing by simply doubling my clicks needed. The hash marks on this scope are a tall one and 4 short ones. This only adds to frustration when dialing as there are no numbers. The inches are explained as 0.18 at 100yds. As some one mentioned earlier getting a label made will be a good fix. I now will have to measure the height of my turret as CTS recomends a 1/10 of an inch high turret.
    Should I continue attempting to dial using Mil dope read out or find another solution.
     
  11. dfanonymous

    dfanonymous Well-Known Member

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    The numbers being said are what’s confusing without seeing the scope.
    If I do this right then:

    What’s .36/2?

    If .36 inch is = to .1 mil at 100 YARDs and it takes 2 clicks of .18 inch turrets to equal .36 inches then it sounds like a .05 mil turret like I originally said.

    .05 clicks x2=.1 mil
    .05 clicks = .18 inches x 2= .36 inches at 100y.


    But beside that, mrad has no bearing in linear math anyways, but for some reason it seems to align in metrics. However if you want to convert it to inches it’s about as simple. So yes you can dial if you want. Either way doesn’t sound like the type of scope that was made to spin turrets with. Just sounds European.
     
  12. WildBillG

    WildBillG Well-Known Member

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    I should ask then are turrets that are made to be spun different then normal low profile ones. By this I mean when you have a scope that was designed to be set and left alone. Is this type of turret internally different then one we dial. My hope was to be able to dial this scope rather then try and figure out what power to use for the reticle.
     
  13. Martin@Hin

    [email protected] Active Member

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  14. Martin@Hin

    [email protected] Active Member

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    Your turret grads are in .05 mils which is 5mm @100 mtr
    .1 mil= [email protected] 100mtr
    1mil =100 [email protected] mtr
    1MOA = 30mm @ 100 MTR!!!
    to estimate distance with mil Mark's in the retical ; know the size of your object in mm devide that by the mil reading and the sum is the distance in mtrs. So 1000 mm :2.5mil = 400mtrs
    DO NOT mix up yards and meters.
    Range in mtr calculate in mtrs and and adjust in decimal mils.
    Happy dialing