A few reloading questions for a beginner.

[RangerBrad]

Hey fellas, Brand new to reloading and have a few short questions yal should have no problem with. Specifically I'll be reloading for 25-06 with 24" barrel using the Berger 115gr vld and the Seirra 120 gr gameking using H4831 and H1000, I will be trying to find my best grouping with heighest veocity for max terminal range and later using this info to work up a profile for a BDC turret.

First question is will I see more velocity using H4831 or H1000? From Hodgens the max load for H4831 is 54.3gr While the max load for H1000 is 56gr using the berger bullet.

Next question is. Will the max load for a cartridge be the same regardless of the brand and weight of bullet used? I.E. H4831 having a max load od 54.3 for the bergers, does that also mean thats the max load for that powder for that cartridge or could it be diffrent when using the 120gr SGK?

Have any of yal seen damage from using the corporate recommendation for max load of Hodgens powder? Or is that something that just normaly happens if exceding recommendation?

While checking out on the web how folks achieved their best groups, invariably it was most allways with highest velocity with bullets seated very,very close to the lands. Is this common or do a large percentage find the best groups at lower velocities or with bullets backed quite a ways of the lands? Thank's, Brad

 

[BountyHunter]

The answer to question one is maybe. Every gun is a beast unto its own. Only way to tell is try it.

The answer to question number two is a resounding NO!

Bullets have different sizes even in the caliber, different bearing surfaces etc. For example Hornady bullets send to be on the fat side. Bullets with the ribs can be driven faster with less pressure versus a jacketed bullets.

Once again start over and test.

Same thing with primers. Actual pressure testing over an Oehler 43 with different primers have shown you can have as much as 5000 psi difference in same load by simply changing primers. So much for all the "exact" QL pressure tests and loads.

IF you do search here on loads say for the 300 RUM for example, you will find that there is about a 4.0 grain difference in what is max in one gun and what is max in the other. It all depends on the individual chamber and throat plus COAL.

Never start at book max, start 10% below and work your way up until you get pressure signs with that particular load and then back off and tweak.

Do not assume that the max accuracy is in or near the lands, sometimes it is as far as .100 off. Plus if you are running them in a magazine, start at max magazine COAL and work backwards.

IF you want for other than mag gun, start in the lands and come back. Pressure goes down as you back off. If you start in the middle, and need to go towards the lands, pressure will increase.

Do not assume again that max velocity is near the lands. It might be and might not be.

Taking internet loads and "ASSuming" they will automatically work in your gun can be dangerous and non habit forming.

However, they do tend to indicate what powders, what load ranges you should look at. Just start low and work up for your gun.

BH

 

[SBruce]

+1

My 25-06 with a 24" barrel shoots the same velocities advertised for factory loads with same said factory loads, handloads give the same velocity basically as the reloading manuals say I should get. However, in an older 25-06, I was getting 200-300'/sec more velocity than stated with X powder charge. I've also seen this in a couple of other rifles. What I mean is that the "book max" should be giving 3000'/sec, but instead it's giving 3200'/sec. in those rifles (which means, to me anyway, that my pressures have to be higher than theirs). In contrast, some other rifles struggle to get the advertised velocities, no matter how much of said powder gets stuffed into the case.

Each rifle is it's own personality and will give different results than another.....that's about the only thing we can be sure of

 

[boomtube]

"..have a few short questions yal should have no problem with."

Oh yes, we will. Your questions are short and pointed; the answers are all "Maybe." Meaning, no one can honestly and accurately tell you what YOUR rifle or loads will perform best with.

 

[flashhole]

You might want to look at Retumbo powder with those heavy bullets. H4831 is my go-to powder for lighter weight bullets but for all the other powders I've tried over the years Retumbo gives me the best results with heavy bullets.

Others gave sage advice for load development. There is no magic bullet (pun intended) that gives the same results even though they are the same weight and as stated earlier, bearing surface is the most influencial factor.

 

[RangerBrad]

As you're working up your load do you ever pass max load(slowly maybe .5gr at a time) looking for higher velocities until you see presure signs then back off a half grain or do you just stick with recommended max and let it go at that? Thank's, Brad

 

[RangerBrad]

SBruce, I'm sure hoping mine is one of the fast ones as the max loads are still below 3000fps and I'm wanting to do better that that. Hornady states their getting 3110 from there 117gr SST ammo and HSM advertises 3165 velocities pushing 115gr Berger VLD's. I was hoping to do as least as well as manufactured rounds. Hornady is using a special blend of powders but, I don't know what HSM is using. Brad

 

[SBruce]

SBruce, I'm sure hoping mine is one of the fast ones as the max loads are still below 3000fps and I'm wanting to do better that that. Hornady states their getting 3110 from there 117gr SST ammo and HSM advertises 3165 velocities pushing 115gr Berger VLD's. I was hoping to do as least as well as manufactured rounds. Hornady is using a special blend of powders but, I don't know what HSM is using. Brad

Yea, it's nice to get a fast one, so long as it's accurate. My fast 22-250 isn't nearly as accurate as my "normal" 22-250.?

To try and answer your other question, yes I have went over book max in small increments looking for that specific target velocity. Sometimes because 2 or 3 different books don't agree on what's max, so we have to find it ourselves. Other times; with wildcat cartridges, there is no book info, then we've gotta find it by looking for pressure signs.

Pressure signs are nothing to be taken lightly, and sticky bolt lift is an absolutely good sign of too much pressure. A marginally safe load at room temp can be dangerously through the roof on a hot summer day. Once I find what I consider max, I drop back by at least a full grain of powder in 25-06 sized cases. Sometimes, in some cartridges, sticky bolt lift is actually way over max.

It's nice to be able to duplicate factory ammo velocities, but if the accuracy isn't at least equal to or better than that same factory ammo, we're better off looking for the most accurace load, regardless of velocity...........no game animal will ever know the difference at reasonable distances.

Best of luck, and be carefull when approaching max powder charges. Even seating depth or primer changes can change chamber pressures.

 

[tomt]

Don't get hung up on speed, doing a couple of "what if's" with a ballistics calculators shows that at 500yds the diffewrence between 3000 & 3100 fps is:
.022 seconds in arrival time
3.1" difference in drop
2 clicks on the scope

Remember this is at five football fields.

External Ballistics Calculator

 

[boomtube]

"do you ever pass max load (slowly maybe .5gr at a time) looking for higher velocities..."

With a midsize case like your's .5gr increases really aren't what I consider small. And few of us ever venture passed book max, even book max may well be over max for individual rifles. And the benefit of an extra hunderd fps is meaningless in the field anyway, by the time you're shooting at long distances errors in range estimation will greatly out weigh any tiny drop differences due to a few more or less fps.



".. until you see presure signs then back off a half grain or do you just stick with recommended max and let it go at that?"

You are a noob, you have a LOT to learn. Do you really want to bet your rifle - or eyes - that you can actually read pressure signs with any certaintly? And I can assure you that if you ARE increasing loads by .5gr and see over pressure signs you were well passed a safe max so backing down one step sure won't give you much safety. (And that's just a small sample of what you need to know but don't yet.)

What I do doesn't matter, you don't have a clue how well I reload or how safe I am; stick to no more than what your book suggests - if that.

 

[powdr]

52.0 to 55.0gr of IMR7828 w/115gr Ballistic Tips is a very consistent load and accurate load. Do not ignore this tip! powdr

 

[RangerBrad]

Thank's fellas for your replies. I will not exceed book max. I am only concerned with speed to increase terminal distance. Will be reloading with experienced reloader this weekend for 25-06 and will be working on 40 gr .204 berger in a week or 2. Brad

 

[HntWhtTail]

I have done alot of experimenting with the 25/06 . I can say that all of the advice given above should be taken seriously. Sticky bolts and flattened or blown out primers are not to be taken lightly. But I found your post intresting because I just switched to the 115vld I have two boxes of each the hunting and the varmint. I started with 4320 because it was always the best powder for my hunting load with 120 speer spbt. good but wanted to try something new tried rl22 very poor accuracy wise, I then got on the more speed quest.. and ended up on h4831 I am currently a slight bit over max with no pressure signs in my ruger vt with 26" bbl. I have gone past where I am but was getting inconsistent accuracy and stcky bolt so I backed off I have since fingured out what was going on and will soon creep up the powder by.25 grains at a time. a note about seating vlds they make specific seater dies for a reason. My dies were giving very inconsistent depths when you are only 1 1000th off the lands a little too far out is alot hence the inconsistency I have went back to checking oal on all rounds I found that if I seat the bullet then back out and turn the shell then seat again I am staying within spec. BTW I am getting .4" 5 shot groups and running average of 3150fps. Now if I could just get that buck to walk out on the right side of the fence...email me with any questions I am glad to help

 

[JeffP40]

If you are not going over book max, which book? They all differ a little, because of the variables involved. The only reason I use a book is to get a starting point. After that, I almost never look at it. I load for the particular rifle. When I find the top, I decide where I want to be according to how it shoots. If I don't like the accuracy, I will try another combination and start over. Sometimes I will mess with seating depth and tweak it that way. I almost always stay at the top of the powder charge for that combination. I never seem to have trouble, for the primer pockets don't loosen. If you are getting loose pockets right away, you are going too far. Along that note, make sure you are sorting your brass by headstamp and weight. Different cases will have different capacities, which will affect your load workup. I always try to use a chrony to watch how the load performs. As you go up in powder, you will see an increase in velocity. When you get near the top, the increase should lessen. It will help you find your maximum.
If you want to stay with the book, go ahead, no problems, but it you want to maximize the potential of the rifle, find it your self. Let us know how you do.