7mm SWT vs. 7mm Allen Mag
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Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Daveosok,
I would say if your getting much over 3300 fps in a 30" barrel in an STW, your pushing things pretty **** hard with a 162-168 gr class bullet. Not saying it is not possible, certainly is, your just cranking the pressure up.
Interestingly enough, often times, you will find very good consistancy and accuracy at these very high pressures if the bullet is made to handle them but non the less you have very high pressures.
You state you see no benefit using the Lapua case as you can get the same performance but with 1/4 the powder in a 34" barrel. Seems like an odd statement to me.
From your own words, you use 74.5 grains of powder to get the 180 gr Berger to 3100 fps in a 34" barrel.
I use 102.0 gr of powder in a 34" barrel to drive the 200 gr ULD RBBT to a VERY comfortable 3340 fps.
So yes, one part of your comment is correct, I use 25% more powder in my chambering but I can drive a 20 grain heavier bullet nearly 250 fps faster with less chamber pressure I am sure in the same length barrel. Then you figure in the BC of each bullet, the Berger is a bit less then .7 from my bullet drop testing and the 200 gr ULD RBBT is between .89 and .91 depending on where they are tested and the velocity they are driven to.
How do you not see any ballistic advantage there, espeically when I am sure both rifles would shoot around 1/2 moa?????
All you have to do is plug in the numbers into a ballistic program and it will tell you exactly the same thing I am.
Now your comment about needing an extremely long barrel with these big chamberings is also laughable. Hell, in your post you state you use a 34" barrel to get the performance you are. I have only built a few rifles with barrels over 30" in my 7mm.
In a 30" barrel, you will get right at 3300 fps with the 200 gr ULD
The 180 gr Berger can be driven to 3450 fps easily in a 30" barrel
The 160 gr Accubond can be driven to right at 3600 fps in a 30" barrel
All with pressure levels that have yet to ever come close to loosening a Lapua primer pocket.
What about even shorter barrels??? In a 27" barrel, I can get the following with extremely comfortable loads:
160 gr Accubond...............3485 fps
180 gr Berger....................3270 fps
200 gr ULD RBBT................3195 fps
So with a conventional sporter length barrel of 27", my 7mm will drive the 180 gr Berger to nearly 200 fps higher velocity then your 34" barreled STW will. HOW IS THIS THE SAME LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE???
To that same point, it will drive the much higher BC 200 gr ULD RBBT to roughly 100 fps higher velocity in 5" less barrel length. Figure in the added bullet weight and the down range terminal performance far outways anything the STW can offer no matter how hard you push it.
I am stating this simply to point out your error and lack of open mindedness on the subject. I am certainly not saying the 7mm AM is the best choice in every situation because it is not but from a shear ballistic and terminal performance stand point at ranges past 700 yards, there simply is no comparision.
There is no comparision at any range for that matter but I believe that at closer ranges, its simply a waste of the abilities of the 7mm AM.
If your to hard headed to see the numbers in front of you and still say there is no ballistic advantage for the 7mm AM, just tells us that you have a personal agenda here because you can not even see the facts when they are put in front of your face.
These are not my numbers only, these are the numbers from dozens of guys out there shooting my 7mm AM. it works and it does what its advertised to do. It is not perfect by any means, its hard on barrels for sure but its designed for big game hunting where 1000 rounds of useful big game accuracy life is more then enough for even serious big game hunters to use the round for a life time.
I would say I recommend the 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm WSM, 7mm Dakota, STW and RUM about 5 to 1 over my 7mm AM as I do with all standard chamberings compared to my recommendations for my Allen Magnums. But for those that come to me wanting the most ballistic and terminal performance they can get for a given caliber, in many cases, my rounds are that choice. The numbers will tell you that if you bother to read them and I assure you its carried out in the field as well.
I am sure you read the comments about the AM hitting rocks harder at long range then the STW as a joke and how could we possibly know that. Well my friend, unless you have experienced it, you will not understand what is being discribed. There is not a bit of a difference, there is not a sizable difference, THERE IS A DRAMATIC difference you can see, hear and almost at times feel as that impact sound comes back to you. On game performance is no different. You would never believe a 7mm could hit game that hard until you see it first hand which you have never done but still seem hell bent on discrediting anything I do. So be it, I sleep well at night and I assure you I never Choke when I see your name, something you can not say, at least from your own printed words.
back to the topic at hand, if you will be shooting out to 600-700 yards on big game, any 7mm magnum will work great. If you want to seriously reach past this range and past 1000 yards, the 7mm AM has a distict advantage but it comes with some baggage which I have never tried to hide.
If you want to shoot elk at ranges past 1/2 mile, I recommend increasing bullet diameter to 30 cal as a min and for 1000 yards and beyond, I recommend a 338 caliber just for their improved terminal performance on heavy game. There are dozens to choose from, take your pic and yes, the AMs and AXs will be at the top rung of those caliber families as well and offer ver good barrel life for performance level ratios.
Take care, seems your aggenda is becoming more clear the more I read here and elsewhere. If you can not see the facts in front of you, so be it, just tells volumes about you.
Again, please do not choke, I am about to sign my name.
Kirby Allen(50)
I would say if your getting much over 3300 fps in a 30" barrel in an STW, your pushing things pretty **** hard with a 162-168 gr class bullet. Not saying it is not possible, certainly is, your just cranking the pressure up.
Interestingly enough, often times, you will find very good consistancy and accuracy at these very high pressures if the bullet is made to handle them but non the less you have very high pressures.
You state you see no benefit using the Lapua case as you can get the same performance but with 1/4 the powder in a 34" barrel. Seems like an odd statement to me.
From your own words, you use 74.5 grains of powder to get the 180 gr Berger to 3100 fps in a 34" barrel.
I use 102.0 gr of powder in a 34" barrel to drive the 200 gr ULD RBBT to a VERY comfortable 3340 fps.
So yes, one part of your comment is correct, I use 25% more powder in my chambering but I can drive a 20 grain heavier bullet nearly 250 fps faster with less chamber pressure I am sure in the same length barrel. Then you figure in the BC of each bullet, the Berger is a bit less then .7 from my bullet drop testing and the 200 gr ULD RBBT is between .89 and .91 depending on where they are tested and the velocity they are driven to.
How do you not see any ballistic advantage there, espeically when I am sure both rifles would shoot around 1/2 moa?????
All you have to do is plug in the numbers into a ballistic program and it will tell you exactly the same thing I am.
Now your comment about needing an extremely long barrel with these big chamberings is also laughable. Hell, in your post you state you use a 34" barrel to get the performance you are. I have only built a few rifles with barrels over 30" in my 7mm.
In a 30" barrel, you will get right at 3300 fps with the 200 gr ULD
The 180 gr Berger can be driven to 3450 fps easily in a 30" barrel
The 160 gr Accubond can be driven to right at 3600 fps in a 30" barrel
All with pressure levels that have yet to ever come close to loosening a Lapua primer pocket.
What about even shorter barrels??? In a 27" barrel, I can get the following with extremely comfortable loads:
160 gr Accubond...............3485 fps
180 gr Berger....................3270 fps
200 gr ULD RBBT................3195 fps
So with a conventional sporter length barrel of 27", my 7mm will drive the 180 gr Berger to nearly 200 fps higher velocity then your 34" barreled STW will. HOW IS THIS THE SAME LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE???
To that same point, it will drive the much higher BC 200 gr ULD RBBT to roughly 100 fps higher velocity in 5" less barrel length. Figure in the added bullet weight and the down range terminal performance far outways anything the STW can offer no matter how hard you push it.
I am stating this simply to point out your error and lack of open mindedness on the subject. I am certainly not saying the 7mm AM is the best choice in every situation because it is not but from a shear ballistic and terminal performance stand point at ranges past 700 yards, there simply is no comparision.
There is no comparision at any range for that matter but I believe that at closer ranges, its simply a waste of the abilities of the 7mm AM.
If your to hard headed to see the numbers in front of you and still say there is no ballistic advantage for the 7mm AM, just tells us that you have a personal agenda here because you can not even see the facts when they are put in front of your face.
These are not my numbers only, these are the numbers from dozens of guys out there shooting my 7mm AM. it works and it does what its advertised to do. It is not perfect by any means, its hard on barrels for sure but its designed for big game hunting where 1000 rounds of useful big game accuracy life is more then enough for even serious big game hunters to use the round for a life time.
I would say I recommend the 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm WSM, 7mm Dakota, STW and RUM about 5 to 1 over my 7mm AM as I do with all standard chamberings compared to my recommendations for my Allen Magnums. But for those that come to me wanting the most ballistic and terminal performance they can get for a given caliber, in many cases, my rounds are that choice. The numbers will tell you that if you bother to read them and I assure you its carried out in the field as well.
I am sure you read the comments about the AM hitting rocks harder at long range then the STW as a joke and how could we possibly know that. Well my friend, unless you have experienced it, you will not understand what is being discribed. There is not a bit of a difference, there is not a sizable difference, THERE IS A DRAMATIC difference you can see, hear and almost at times feel as that impact sound comes back to you. On game performance is no different. You would never believe a 7mm could hit game that hard until you see it first hand which you have never done but still seem hell bent on discrediting anything I do. So be it, I sleep well at night and I assure you I never Choke when I see your name, something you can not say, at least from your own printed words.
back to the topic at hand, if you will be shooting out to 600-700 yards on big game, any 7mm magnum will work great. If you want to seriously reach past this range and past 1000 yards, the 7mm AM has a distict advantage but it comes with some baggage which I have never tried to hide.
If you want to shoot elk at ranges past 1/2 mile, I recommend increasing bullet diameter to 30 cal as a min and for 1000 yards and beyond, I recommend a 338 caliber just for their improved terminal performance on heavy game. There are dozens to choose from, take your pic and yes, the AMs and AXs will be at the top rung of those caliber families as well and offer ver good barrel life for performance level ratios.
Take care, seems your aggenda is becoming more clear the more I read here and elsewhere. If you can not see the facts in front of you, so be it, just tells volumes about you.
Again, please do not choke, I am about to sign my name.
Kirby Allen(50)
D
daveosok
Guest
Yes Kirby you're right, I succeed to your superiority in every manner and will from now on bow out when the thread reads your name.
BTW you gonna pay Len the 1000 to keep getting business on his site or will you remove your signature and all references to your business? It sure would be nice since you've benefited so much from the free advertising. Maybe you can build him a free gun just make sure it aint a stw.
I don't get choked up your not on the other site so it suits me fine.
Furthermore at the risk of being banned which I don't care either; Kirby why don't you (petulant, childish language removed by Len).
BTW you gonna pay Len the 1000 to keep getting business on his site or will you remove your signature and all references to your business? It sure would be nice since you've benefited so much from the free advertising. Maybe you can build him a free gun just make sure it aint a stw.
I don't get choked up your not on the other site so it suits me fine.
Furthermore at the risk of being banned which I don't care either; Kirby why don't you (petulant, childish language removed by Len).
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jett
Well-Known Member
Len,
Please ban this Daveosok guy. I for one and I am sure many others benefit way more from Kirby sharing his knowledge with us on this site than Kirby benefits from selling rifles. Losing Kirby from this site would be tragic. Losing this daveosok guy would be a blessing.
Kirby,
Thanks for all the free knowledge which you so generously share with us. When I see people take cheap, absurd shots at you and Richard Graves, I hold my breath and hope neither of you stop what you do for us longrange shooters.
Thanks again,
Jett Ferebee
Please ban this Daveosok guy. I for one and I am sure many others benefit way more from Kirby sharing his knowledge with us on this site than Kirby benefits from selling rifles. Losing Kirby from this site would be tragic. Losing this daveosok guy would be a blessing.
Kirby,
Thanks for all the free knowledge which you so generously share with us. When I see people take cheap, absurd shots at you and Richard Graves, I hold my breath and hope neither of you stop what you do for us longrange shooters.
Thanks again,
Jett Ferebee
I'll second that. I hate seeing a grown man act like a child.
Uncle B,
I'm with the other guys on this one. Kirby's always a gentleman, always helps out, and answers questions with detailed and accurate data. He's a true asset to the site.
I don't know Dave. But, he's off his rocker here!
I'm with the other guys on this one. Kirby's always a gentleman, always helps out, and answers questions with detailed and accurate data. He's a true asset to the site.
I don't know Dave. But, he's off his rocker here!
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
catch-34,
Only tested in one true 26" barrel. It was a 26" pac-nor 1-9.
160 gr Accubond at 3500 fps
200 gr ULD RBBT at 3145 fps
The 200 gr bullet did not stabilize in that barrel which is curious as it has in all the Lilja 1-9 barrels??????
All others have been 27" or longer barrels.
Kirby Allen(50)
Only tested in one true 26" barrel. It was a 26" pac-nor 1-9.
160 gr Accubond at 3500 fps
200 gr ULD RBBT at 3145 fps
The 200 gr bullet did not stabilize in that barrel which is curious as it has in all the Lilja 1-9 barrels??????
All others have been 27" or longer barrels.
Kirby Allen(50)
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Daveosok,
I am truely sorry you feel the way you do. I do not understand why but its been going on for a long time now.
Seems you think I use LRH only for commerical business. That could hardly be the case. I am like everyone else on here. I test things, I bring them to the formum and offer all the results of my testing.
Just like if you tested your wildcat and reported the results. I would and have read that with great interest. I do not post the results of my wildcats for finacial gain. I do it because I am excited about long range shooting and pushing the envelope farther then ever before. There are hundreds of same, like minded people on this site. I hold myself no higher then any of them, in fact, I hold many, MANY on this site with the upmost reguard in respect.
I enjoy reading about every experiment that anyone does, no matter what the chambering is called. Be it a 7mm STW or a wildcat with their name on it, it is all exciting to read about.
You have a wealth of knowledge to share, unfortunately you are obsessed with me Supposedly taking over LRH and using it as my personal web site. That is not the case. I get very upset when this is said. This is Lens site, he ALLOWS us to be here and yes he expects us to be respectful. Things happen but for the most part, this is the most supportive and informative site on the web because of the people, well most of them anyway.
I do not what Len to boot you off. Yes I get annoyed with you attacking me on other web pages but that is your right. Your comments and feelings are unfounded and flat out incorrect. I wish you could see this for what it is, I am just another poster on LRH. If someone asks a question I have experience with, I offer my experience and data, factual data, not opinion. I do not post on what I think, only what I have proven that I know.
Anyway, no apology needed, as it will not be sincere anyway.
Sorry I annoy you this much, maybe it is time to get off LRH just so you can sleep at nights. This is something I consider everytime you blow up like this. Its not worth it to the other posters to put up with these explosions.
Anyway, take care,
Kirby Allen(50)
I am truely sorry you feel the way you do. I do not understand why but its been going on for a long time now.
Seems you think I use LRH only for commerical business. That could hardly be the case. I am like everyone else on here. I test things, I bring them to the formum and offer all the results of my testing.
Just like if you tested your wildcat and reported the results. I would and have read that with great interest. I do not post the results of my wildcats for finacial gain. I do it because I am excited about long range shooting and pushing the envelope farther then ever before. There are hundreds of same, like minded people on this site. I hold myself no higher then any of them, in fact, I hold many, MANY on this site with the upmost reguard in respect.
I enjoy reading about every experiment that anyone does, no matter what the chambering is called. Be it a 7mm STW or a wildcat with their name on it, it is all exciting to read about.
You have a wealth of knowledge to share, unfortunately you are obsessed with me Supposedly taking over LRH and using it as my personal web site. That is not the case. I get very upset when this is said. This is Lens site, he ALLOWS us to be here and yes he expects us to be respectful. Things happen but for the most part, this is the most supportive and informative site on the web because of the people, well most of them anyway.
I do not what Len to boot you off. Yes I get annoyed with you attacking me on other web pages but that is your right. Your comments and feelings are unfounded and flat out incorrect. I wish you could see this for what it is, I am just another poster on LRH. If someone asks a question I have experience with, I offer my experience and data, factual data, not opinion. I do not post on what I think, only what I have proven that I know.
Anyway, no apology needed, as it will not be sincere anyway.
Sorry I annoy you this much, maybe it is time to get off LRH just so you can sleep at nights. This is something I consider everytime you blow up like this. Its not worth it to the other posters to put up with these explosions.
Anyway, take care,
Kirby Allen(50)
ss7mm
Well-Known Member
I knew it would only be a matter of time and you'd again show your true colors. Colors something like what you expressed in the post shown below from the "other site" where you shared your views about Len, this site and pretty much all of us. I agree with the previous posters, time to move on and disappear.
And, for the record, I pretty much disagree with all of your opinions.
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grit,
Dont get me wrong I never said anything negative about Kirby, I consider him a friend and I know he feels the same way about me, I was just trying to calm down the situation a bit. with that said after reading ss7mm's post I can more clearly see why everyone is bringing out the gas can.
I just did not want to see another WEDA debacle.
UB
Kirby, I am going to be building a 7mm soon. I have not decided on what cartridge yet, but I want to shoot the 162grn A-Max. You know me, I like the lighter bullets at higer velocities, so I think the 162 A-Max would be perfect.
I am going to be using others bullets as well, however, the weights will be between 160 to 180grns. Would a 1-9 twist be best. I know you have done a bunch of testing with 7mm's, so I thought you would know what would be best. I think you told me one time that the Lilja 1-9 twist were working well in the 7mm. I am getting ready to start buying components, so I want
Also, the comment DAVEOSOK made was very wrong. I think he should apoplogize, and he should not be aloud on this site. We all say and get a little worked up some times on this site, I know, because I am guilty of that myself. However, using those types of comments are dead wrong and should not be aloud.
W.
I am going to be using others bullets as well, however, the weights will be between 160 to 180grns. Would a 1-9 twist be best. I know you have done a bunch of testing with 7mm's, so I thought you would know what would be best. I think you told me one time that the Lilja 1-9 twist were working well in the 7mm. I am getting ready to start buying components, so I want
Also, the comment DAVEOSOK made was very wrong. I think he should apoplogize, and he should not be aloud on this site. We all say and get a little worked up some times on this site, I know, because I am guilty of that myself. However, using those types of comments are dead wrong and should not be aloud.
W.
linksmechanic
Well-Known Member
I don't think the guy should be banned. He has a right to his opinion. I don't know him or care. Maybe he had 1 to many beers who knows? You guys can't tell me that's the first cuss word you heard on a public forum. Tell the guy to say sorry for the cuss word but to hail to the almighty I don't think so.
