7mm Sherman Short Mag vs 300 Win mag

[elkaholic]

I have the 6.5 Sherman and it's been a lot of fun to mess around with - I think I need a 338 SS sometime soon. Just a few more Sportsmans Warehouse rewards cards and I'll have enough to pick up a donor action (I'm thinking a Tikka T3 might be fun to try out this time).

Rich - what barrel length would you recommend with the 338? 26"?

Depends on what you want to pack but I think it would perform very well with a shorter barrel too. I am guessing about 20' per inch of barrel?.....Rich

 

[elkaholic]

The 7mm SS Mag is a cartridge based off the 7mm SAUM. Its been improved with a sharper shoulder that is pushed back so that you can run long bullets in a full length mag. My 195 EOL just barely fits with the 7mm SS, so i doubt it would for sure in a 7mm SAUM.

The case is trimmed to 1.95."

The process is simple really. Get a 7mm SAUM FL sizing die, shorten it about .16-.17 inches so you have some room to play with. Set the die so that the brass is just barely short enough to allow the bolt to close. You want just a little bit of crush, but not so much you cant close the bolt.

Trim the necks as well to about .0135 or so thick. If you use an outside neck turner, youll need to run them back through a sizer to get the necks to the right dimensions. I think the inside/outside turners you probably wouldn't have too. Youll have a pretty good sized donut youll need to get rid off that was formed when you push the shoulders back since the brass flows from the shoulder into the neck.

Load up with about 8-9 grains of Titewad (Charge varies with powder), put a piece of tissue or toilet paper ontop of the powder, and then top with 2 minute cream of wheat. To seal up the neck, fill it with wax or more tissue/toilet paper. I used a candle warmer and poured wax it the necks. Worked good and smelled great!

Trim to 1.95." Then your done. The only real extra step over normal brass prep for new stock is loading the powder with COW and wax to start fire forming. I neck trim, chamfer flash hole, length trim, and full length size anyways. You end up with the way they should have designed the 7mm SAUM in the first place. Im tickled with it.

You can get Norma brass from midway for about a $1.52 a piece. Rich has it in stock as well. His brass looks much better than mine. I didn't have a very good trim on my necks for some reason. He also has the dies and everything in stock. He sells the Whidden dies which are super dies, and even if you have problems, they are extremely willing and happy to fix anything that might be wrong. Rich also has the reamer and go gauge as well by the way.

I have a good write up on the case forming for those who want to do their own, but the ready to fire is pretty sweet and will shoot one hole in a good barrel. I don't even mess with the COW method any more. I can also get hydro dies for those who want them...Rich

 

[FEENIX]

I don't even mess with the COW method any more. I can also get hydro dies for those who want them...Rich

I was never a fan of the COW. I love mine built by John Whidden.

Ed

 

[waspocrew]

Depends on what you want to pack but I think it would perform very well with a shorter barrel too. I am guessing about 20' per inch of barrel?.....Rich

Sounds good to me - I don't mind a 26", but 24" might be a little more handy to pack around. My first line of business is deciding which action to go with, then I'll move on to barrel, etc. Might take me a bit to acquire it all, but it will happen!

 

[elkaholic]

After reading "Thederksters" post on the 195's in the 7SS, I had to go out and buy some to see how my numbers compared. It turns out that they compare pretty well.
I first tried to see if I could get enough RL33 in the case to max it out pressure wise. I could only get 66 tightly compressed grains in which was pushing some of the bullets out so the coal was VARIABLE The load shot very well considering, but was short of max by quite a bit based on primer comparison and bolt lift.
I then tried RL26 to compare to Derksters data. He has a 28" barrel and mine is only a 26", so I expected about a 40' difference if loaded grain for grain. I did load one grain more than he did which should have added 50'. It turned out that the data compared quite well given different rifles. My barrel is a 5r Krieger #4 in a 9 twist. Berger recommends an 8 twist but I am shooting at 4250' elev. Below are the results. I think with a little load development, these 195's are going to be a hammer! Bear in mind that this case only holds about 72-73 grains of water. I was shooting in a 25mph wind at 100 yards (mostly tail wind) ......Rich

CAN ANYONE SAY "F-CLASS"

 

[7mmShooter]

****, excellent work you two! Sounds like a simply wonderful combination... Always wondered if it had enough to make use of the 195s. Hmm, curious now as to 300SS with 215 Hybrids or 212 ELD-X, what do you think Rich? Viable option?

 

[elkaholic]

****, excellent work you two! Sounds like a simply wonderful combination... Always wondered if it had enough to make use of the 195s. Hmm, curious now as to 300SS with 215 Hybrids or 212 ELD-X, what do you think Rich? Viable option?

Funny you should mention that There is a 300 coming soon which I think will keep up with the WM and a 338 close behind......Rich

 

[TheDerkster]

After reading "Thederksters" post on the 195's in the 7SS, I had to go out and buy some to see how my numbers compared. It turns out that they compare pretty well.
I first tried to see if I could get enough RL33 in the case to max it out pressure wise. I could only get 66 tightly compressed grains in which was pushing some of the bullets out so the coal was VARIABLE The load shot very well considering, but was short of max by quite a bit based on primer comparison and bolt lift.
I then tried RL26 to compare to Derksters data. He has a 28" barrel and mine is only a 26", so I expected about a 40' difference if loaded grain for grain. I did load one grain more than he did which should have added 50'. It turned out that the data compared quite well given different rifles. My barrel is a 5r Krieger #4 in a 9 twist. Berger recommends an 8 twist but I am shooting at 4250' elev. Below are the results. I think with a little load development, these 195's are going to be a hammer! Bear in mind that this case only holds about 72-73 grains of water. I was shooting in a 25mph wind at 100 yards (mostly tail wind) ......Rich

CAN ANYONE SAY "F-CLASS"

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That's great Rich!

My barrel is identical to yours except im running an MTU contour and 2 extra inches. I got the 5r rifling as well.

I haven't had time because of finals week and planting season all going on, but I'm super excited over the next month or so to get some more shooting time. Im really hoping that maybe ill have an accuracy node around 60-60.5 grains. Pushing that 195 at ~2980 fps would be a wicked deer slayer as well as fast.

You do want to run a muzzle brake if you shoot much tho. Its a hammer down range and against the shoulder if you shoot much at one time. Not painful, but you can tell it was there!

 

[elkaholic]

That's great Rich!

My barrel is identical to yours except im running an MTU contour and 2 extra inches. I got the 5r rifling as well.

I haven't had time because of finals week and planting season all going on, but I'm super excited over the next month or so to get some more shooting time. Im really hoping that maybe ill have an accuracy node around 60-60.5 grains. Pushing that 195 at ~2980 fps would be a wicked deer slayer as well as fast.

You do want to run a muzzle brake if you shoot much tho. Its a hammer down range and against the shoulder if you shoot much at one time. Not painful, but you can tell it was there!

The recoil was not bad on mine but I noticed that even before. I think it is the thumbhole stock that helps.

 

[TheDerkster]

The recoil was not bad on mine but I noticed that even before. I think it is the thumbhole stock that helps.

Do you use a muzzle brake? Recoil doesn't really exist with the brake on.

 

[elkaholic]

Do you use a muzzle brake? Recoil doesn't really exist with the brake on.

Nope, mine is buck naked

 

[Broz]

Yes the SS line are very efficient cartridges. Rich has really done his homework with them.
But since I spent last fall killing elk like a mad man (70 elk taken total) and the 300 win with a 215 Hybrid @3035 and the 7-300with a 195 @2950 were the two rifles use most for the first of many kills, let me offer some real world long range hunting results. PS, both rifles loaded to max with equal pressure signs.

First, to the OP, you are cheating your 300 win with the 210 VLD. It is no doubt that the 195 is one of, if not the best bullets for external ballistics there is for a 7. So lets offer the same to the 300 win and feed it a 215 Hybrid with a much higher BC than the 210 VLD. It is only fair to compare hybrid ogive to hybrid ogive right? Plus the 215 Hybrid with its shorter bearing surface than the 210 VLD will actually get more velocity than a 210 with less powder. Been there done it over and over.

Now lets go kill elk. I mentioned the 300 win and the 7-300 were the two most used rifles during a good part of last season here. This included a pre-season management hunt, all season long. And a post-season management hunt. Some nights we even had these two rifles side by side with a different hunter on each rifle while we waited in the blind for the elk to enter the hay field. Here are the results. The 215 Hybrid will out kill the 195 in a way so obvious after about a 15 or 20 elk taken with the 7 I put it away. The 300 with a 215 , not once needed a second shot to dispatch the elk. The 7mm, several needed a second shot. Now, add in the real world possibility of a less than perfectly placed shot and the advantage in terminal performance of the 300 with a 215 becomes even more evident.

This I feel is a great comparison. Why?
1: Because all this info is real and happened.
2: Same parent case were used.
3: Same powder were used
4: Same barrel brand and length were used same number of lands and groves
5: Repeated results were studied with several witnesses
6: I personally field dressed about 50 elk and documented the terminal performance, wound channels and shot placements myself
7: Optimum bullet used for each chambering
8: Both with the same muzzle brakes and barrel contour.


Since I just happen to have both of these rifles in my ballistic app, with drops documented to a mile and confirmed. Lets compare the real world external ballistics.

7-300 win with 195 Berger @ 2950
800 yards 10 mph 3:00 wind
dial up 15.9 moa right 2.6 moa
impact velocity 2150 energy 2000

300 win with 215 Hybrid @ 3035
800 yards with 10 mph 3:00 wind
dial up 15.0 moa and right 2.8 moa
impact velocity 2141 energy 2188

7mm takes .2 moa less wind (one click)
300 has 1 moa less drop (4 clicks)
300 arrives with 188 lbs more energy.

I used 800 yards because the OP was about at that distance for his comparison. And 400 to 850 were where we took all of these elk. But if you want to go further the same trend in results will only magnify the advantages of each.

So I offer these documented results for those who are trying to decide between the 7 and the 30. It will always boil down to personal needs. But if elk are ever going to be in your freezer, under equal conditions, the 30 cal will out kill the 7 all day long.


Furthermore, We always have the option to propel either with larger or more efficient cases. Then we also have the option to up the ante with the 30 cal by going to the 230 hybrid and lots more velocity. I have done this too. Ever shot a 7 lapua? I owned one. What happens is we get better external ballistics with both, but we start paying the price in barrel life. The 7 will loose this battle every time. This is why I feel my comparison above is a good one. Don't know how we could offer a more level playing field to compare a 7 to a 30.

And for what its worth. The 338 with a 300 Berger OTM @3160 will spank them both in every aspect.

Just the facts for those who are looking for real world, documented data without any Cult or supporter hype for either caliber.

I happen to like them both, but know the limitations and strong points of each and use them to my advantage.

Hope this info might help someone.

Jeff

 

[TheDerkster]

Yes the SS line are very efficient cartridges. Rich has really done his homework with them.
But since I spent last fall killing elk like a mad man (70 elk taken total) and the 300 win with a 215 Hybrid @3035 and the 7-300with a 195 @2950 were the two rifles use most for the first of many kills, let me offer some real world long range hunting results. PS, both rifles loaded to max with equal pressure signs.

First, to the OP, you are cheating your 300 win with the 210 VLD. It is no doubt that the 195 is one of, if not the best bullets for external ballistics there is for a 7. So lets offer the same to the 300 win and feed it a 215 Hybrid with a much higher BC than the 210 VLD. It is only fair to compare hybrid ogive to hybrid ogive right? Plus the 215 Hybrid with its shorter bearing surface than the 210 VLD will actually get more velocity than a 210 with less powder. Been there done it over and over.

Now lets go kill elk. I mentioned the 300 win and the 7-300 were the two most used rifles during a good part of last season here. This included a pre-season management hunt, all season long. And a post-season management hunt. Some nights we even had these two rifles side by side with a different hunter on each rifle while we waited in the blind for the elk to enter the hay field. Here are the results. The 215 Hybrid will out kill the 195 in a way so obvious after about a 15 or 20 elk I put the 7 away. The 300 with a 215 , not once needed a second shot to dispatch the elk. The 7mm, several needed a second shot. Now, add in the real world possibility of a less than perfectly placed shot and the advantage in terminal performance of the 300 with a 215 becomes even more evident.

This I feel is a great comparison. Why?
1: Because all this info is real and happened.
2: Same parent case were used.
3: Same powder were used
4: Same barrel brand and length were used same number of lands and groves
5: Repeated results were studied with several witnesses
6: I personally field dressed about 50 elk and documented the terminal performance, wound channels and shot placements myself
7: Optimum bullet used for each chambering
8: Both with the same muzzle brakes and barrel contour.

Now since I just happen to have both of these rifles in my ballistic app with drops documented to a mile and confirmed. Lets compare the real world external ballistics.

7-300 win with 195 Berger @ 2950
800 yards 10 mph 3:00 wind
dial up 15.9 moa right 2.6 moa
impact velocity 2150 energy 2000

300 win with 215 Hybrid @ 3035
800 yards with 10 mph 3:00 wind
dial up 15.0 moa and right 2.8 moa
impact velocity 2141 energy 2188

7mm takes .2 less wind
300 has 1 moa less drop
300 arrives with 188 lbs more energy.

I used 800 yards because the OP was about that distance and 400 to 850 were where we took all of these elk. But if you want to go further the same trend in results will only magnify the advantages of each.

So I offer these documented results for those who are trying to decide between the 7 and the 30. It will always boil down to personal needs. But if elk are ever going to be in your freezer, under equal conditions, the 30 cal will out kill the 7 all day long.


Furthermore, We always have the option to propel either with larger or more efficient cases. Then we also have the option to up the ante with the 30 cal by going to the 230 hybrid and lots more velocity. I have done this too. Ever shot a 7 lapua? I owned one. What happens is we get better external ballistics with both, but we start paying the price in barrel life. The 7 will loose this battle every time. This is why I feel my comparison above is a good one. Don't know how we could offer a more level playing field to compare a 7 to a 30.

And for what its worth. The 338 with a 300 Berger OTM @3160 will spank them both in every aspect.

Just the facts for those who are looking for real world, documented data without any Cult or supporter hype for either caliber.

I happen to like them both, but know the limitations and strong points of each and use them to my advantage.

Hope this info might help someone.

Jeff

Superb post.

I guess I didn't really mean that the 7 SS was better, but simply that it is very comparable with much less powder and it's usuable in a short action. How often can you compare the energy and ballistics of something like a full length 300 win mag to a short action magnum?

300WM does have an edge because you have the capacity to do so. I just found a load that seemed common, but not necessarily the best.

 

[TheDerkster]

Nope, mine is buck naked

Yours is also lighter so it's obviously gonna be more than what my 16 pound tank is. As I said, it's not painful, but I shot 30 rounds unbraked the other day and I feel I would have been more comfortable with a brake on