squakwacker
Member
Hey all this is my first post here. I'll be using some 180 grain VLD Bergers for deer out here in the AZ country, any suggestions for charges/seating depth? Also, any thoughts on my bullet choice? Thanks.
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7mm Rem Mag waaayyy out there
- Thread starter squakwacker
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squakwacker,
Welcome to LRH.
The bergers are very nice. BC bumping the .7 mark makes for very few clicks way out there. Keep in mind that berger reccomends a 1:9 for this bullet. It shoots well here at 1330ft elevation from a 1:10, but if you are lower, and plan on shooting in the cold, you may have trouble
As to powder, let me say one word:
RETUMBO!!!!
66.8gr of Retumbo, touching the lands made an even 2800 in the 26" rifle I was working with.
Welcome to LRH.
The bergers are very nice. BC bumping the .7 mark makes for very few clicks way out there. Keep in mind that berger reccomends a 1:9 for this bullet. It shoots well here at 1330ft elevation from a 1:10, but if you are lower, and plan on shooting in the cold, you may have trouble
As to powder, let me say one word:
RETUMBO!!!!
66.8gr of Retumbo, touching the lands made an even 2800 in the 26" rifle I was working with.
Haven't tried Bergers yet, or the Retumbo (have a pound but haven't shot it yet). I like 150grn Sierra (gotta stick with the home team) spbt's with IMR 4350 pushing them at 2900fps in my 9.5 twist. Still looking for the perfect load. I've heard the Retumbo is good stuff.
reed mosser
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2003
- Messages
- 347
I already shot 2 deer with 180 bergers out of a custom 7wsm with 70.0 gr retumbo at 3000 FPS. Don't waste your time, I never seen a bullet perform so badly on game. They come in at .284 and exit maybe a 308. They are great for punching paper at a 1000 yrds, but they don't kill. Shoot the 162 a max or ballistic tip bonded or not for hunting Thanks Reed
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Reed,
I used the 140 gr Berger VLD in my 6.5-.284 to kill an antelope last fall at 1030 yards, and it worked awesome. At that range, I have found only a match bullet or a polymer tipped bullet provide the frangibility to open reliably.
I used the 140 gr Berger VLD in my 6.5-.284 to kill an antelope last fall at 1030 yards, and it worked awesome. At that range, I have found only a match bullet or a polymer tipped bullet provide the frangibility to open reliably.
squakwacker
Member
reed mosser, how far away was it? I'm not talking about 400- yards here, I'm talking at least 500 where I hunt, Arizona.
keithcandler
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2005
- Messages
- 650
I hunted in Az also with a 7 Mag. We rode horses/mules and shot from one mountain ridge to another at times. I used the 140g Nosler Ballistic tip, and NEVER lost a deer or pig. Having said that, I would go with the 140g Nosler Accubond, and any preceived problem would be solved. The load that I shot was as follows:
Rem brass
9 1/2
140g Nosler
64-65g of IMR 4350=3200fps in my Browning A bolt
or
66.5g of H-4350= 3300 in my browning A bolt
Both of these loads shoot less than 1/2" three shot groups.
Many times the deer will just stand there and look at you if they are beyond 400 with a wind that is not blowing to them. If you use a muzzle break, you can actually see your bullet impact, and hold for corrections on follow up shots. We shot some deer way out there, like two hills over using the above method. We actually had the time to get off the mule, screw on a bi pod, lay down on the ground and see if the deer had large enough mass to shoot. The main thing is to use a scope with enough power to where you will be able to see your bullet impacts. Your buddy being used as a spotter, usually does not give a specific enough
descripton of where the bullet hits. Plus, if he is using a 10x binoculars and you are using a 6-20x scope, you may be able to see a bullet impact on a rock, or dirt fly behind a bush that he can not see.
I don't think that you need a big heavy bullet in a 7 Mag for 500 yard shots or even 600 yard shots on DEER. You do need good bullet placement. There is no telling just what is going to happen with the Burger bullets (j-4 jackets) when they hit. The main thing is to go to Rio Salado and practice at 300,400, and 500 meters. Your deer hunting at 500 will be a piece of cake after the practice.
Good luck!
Rem brass
9 1/2
140g Nosler
64-65g of IMR 4350=3200fps in my Browning A bolt
or
66.5g of H-4350= 3300 in my browning A bolt
Both of these loads shoot less than 1/2" three shot groups.
Many times the deer will just stand there and look at you if they are beyond 400 with a wind that is not blowing to them. If you use a muzzle break, you can actually see your bullet impact, and hold for corrections on follow up shots. We shot some deer way out there, like two hills over using the above method. We actually had the time to get off the mule, screw on a bi pod, lay down on the ground and see if the deer had large enough mass to shoot. The main thing is to use a scope with enough power to where you will be able to see your bullet impacts. Your buddy being used as a spotter, usually does not give a specific enough
descripton of where the bullet hits. Plus, if he is using a 10x binoculars and you are using a 6-20x scope, you may be able to see a bullet impact on a rock, or dirt fly behind a bush that he can not see.
I don't think that you need a big heavy bullet in a 7 Mag for 500 yard shots or even 600 yard shots on DEER. You do need good bullet placement. There is no telling just what is going to happen with the Burger bullets (j-4 jackets) when they hit. The main thing is to go to Rio Salado and practice at 300,400, and 500 meters. Your deer hunting at 500 will be a piece of cake after the practice.
Good luck!
squakwacker
Member
I'm not just hunting deer. Black bear, elk, and pronghorn are all on the agenda this year. I might go down to a 150 MK, but I don't feel comfortable using a 140. I'm the kind of guy that likes to make sure it's DRT (dead right there), I'm also a very big fan of perfect shot placement, and that if you can't kill it with a smaller gun, a bigger one isn't going to solve anything. I use a 7mm because it's what I have. Granted it's a very good gun and ballistically efficient, but I don't have the money right now to build what I want, so a have a savage 110 with the worst stock I've had the displeasure of ever seeing, and a barrel that could be confused with a soda straw, aimed by a 70 dollar wal mart special. It's not the gun, it's the guy touching the round off.
Mysticplayer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2001
- Messages
- 1,459
Doing the same thing. Mine is a Savage D mag package rifle. The scope and rings will be sold. I will add a muzzle brake and a Hogue prefit recoil pad.
Don't fret the stock. It does work very well. You just need to mod it a bit. The first thing is to increase the clearance in the barrel channel. The foreend is flimsy so make enough space so that however you rest it, it will not hit the barrel. That gap could be 1/8" or more. I don't care as it will work.
My pillar bedding is actually very good. Will gouge out the plastic and bed the recoil lug and around the rear action screw. I will use Devcon Steel as it should stick ok to the plastic. If you don't take your rifle apart all the time, the bedding will hold. Where else can it go?
This is my second package rifle. The first, a 270, shot rds 4,5,and 6 into 1/4" at 100yds when I was sighting in the rifle. This was with it out of the box and a new scope. So the stock can and will work very well.
With the handloads, it now shoots inside 1/2" at 180yds if I can hold properly. Not bad for a cheapie rifle.
Took the same set up to 380yds to shoot at clay pigeons and had a 100% hit rate at that range. Winds were very light though.
For my 7RM load, I will be using 162gr SST and possibly Amax. Wonderfully accurate with very high BC and great on game performance. The SST will allow me to shoot from 200yds out to around 900yds. closer is possible but lots of bruising of meat.
I will try H870 and Fed 215M primers. Supposed to go 3100fps in a 24" barrel. Should be interesting to see if it works.
Good luck with your project...
Jerry
Don't fret the stock. It does work very well. You just need to mod it a bit. The first thing is to increase the clearance in the barrel channel. The foreend is flimsy so make enough space so that however you rest it, it will not hit the barrel. That gap could be 1/8" or more. I don't care as it will work.
My pillar bedding is actually very good. Will gouge out the plastic and bed the recoil lug and around the rear action screw. I will use Devcon Steel as it should stick ok to the plastic. If you don't take your rifle apart all the time, the bedding will hold. Where else can it go?
This is my second package rifle. The first, a 270, shot rds 4,5,and 6 into 1/4" at 100yds when I was sighting in the rifle. This was with it out of the box and a new scope. So the stock can and will work very well.
With the handloads, it now shoots inside 1/2" at 180yds if I can hold properly. Not bad for a cheapie rifle.
Took the same set up to 380yds to shoot at clay pigeons and had a 100% hit rate at that range. Winds were very light though.
For my 7RM load, I will be using 162gr SST and possibly Amax. Wonderfully accurate with very high BC and great on game performance. The SST will allow me to shoot from 200yds out to around 900yds. closer is possible but lots of bruising of meat.
I will try H870 and Fed 215M primers. Supposed to go 3100fps in a 24" barrel. Should be interesting to see if it works.
Good luck with your project...
Jerry
reed mosser
Well-Known Member
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- Sep 16, 2003
- Messages
- 347
The two deer I hsot were at 500 and 550 yards. If I shot just one deer with bad results I wouldn't say anything but I shot 2 and had the same results. If your lucky and get a bullet to hit a bone or rib it might kill good but if not you are just poking holes. IF it can't kill good at 500 why would it kill any better at 1000. If you are shooting under 700 yards a 140 bt or bonde ballistic tip would be the ticket. The like the 120 bt in my 7 wsm but thats just me. Stick with the hunting bullets for taking bigh game. The target bullets are what they are. Thanks
G
Guest
Guest
I've found that the 140gr SGK, XLC, and even Corelokt do a superb job at dropping critters in their tracks. One shot & watch em drop.
squakwacker and Jerry, There isn't much wrong with Savage. Its just cheap. The bullet smiths at Sierra will tell you that they have switched all of their testing over to Savages because Remington wouldn't back their product when they fell apart. I'm not bashing Rem, I own my fair share of them. Savages are just the best factory gun you can buy for accuracy without spending 2K. I just glass bedded mine and filled the butt and all cavities with epoxy and lead shot. Needed a little help with the recoil for those 200 plus shot days.
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Reed,
I think you make a good point when you recommend using Accubonds for long range (0-850) and I have proven that with pictures on this forum. However, I believe your understanding of match bullets is curious to me. It sounds like you believe them to be FMJ's in hollow point clothing. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Shoot a few of those VLD's into a sand burm, or phonebooks, or anything solid at the ranges you would normally shoot other bullets. <font color="blue"> MASSIVE DEFRAGMENTATION </font> is what you will see. These bullets have super-thin jackets with long sloping noses and mostly rearward lead cores. I agree that some of the smaller caliber vld's just poke holes on varmints, but on big game, there are few bullets in my experience that damage flesh like match hollowpoints.
Look at my post on Bullets, barrels, ballistics of the .338 MOAG pics and story. THere are several pics of HUGE 300 grain bullets slamming into soft dirt at 300 yards and they look like little bits of a copper bomb! And these are 300 grain bullets with a sectional density of .375! If there is a match bullet that will hold together, this is it and it didn't.
The reason why these bullets "work" at longer ranges (850 and beyond) is because they still open up and cause damage even after they slow down. THe farthest I have seen the Accubond used on game was when Brian B nailed a speed goat at 949 yards and it did excellent. I need to test them at 1000 yards plus, but I know that match bullets will work this far out. My antelope at 1030 yards was only hit about 2 inches up from the brisket and it cut her from brisket to mid lung. She walked about 50 yards and fell down. I could not have asked for better performance.
I am and always will be a fan of the bullet that causes the most damage internally. I don't care if the bullet leaves an exit wound as long as the entire front half of the shoulders and chest cavity are Jello-ized. People who prefer a zip through so they have a blood trail to track are like boxers who will go for the technical knock-out in the tenth round instead of ending it with a bone-crushing uppercut for a knockout in the first round. Match bullets at extended ranges and accubonds or ballistic tips at long range do the uppercut! 1,2,3, KO!
Hope this helps.
I think you make a good point when you recommend using Accubonds for long range (0-850) and I have proven that with pictures on this forum. However, I believe your understanding of match bullets is curious to me. It sounds like you believe them to be FMJ's in hollow point clothing. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Shoot a few of those VLD's into a sand burm, or phonebooks, or anything solid at the ranges you would normally shoot other bullets. <font color="blue"> MASSIVE DEFRAGMENTATION </font> is what you will see. These bullets have super-thin jackets with long sloping noses and mostly rearward lead cores. I agree that some of the smaller caliber vld's just poke holes on varmints, but on big game, there are few bullets in my experience that damage flesh like match hollowpoints.
Look at my post on Bullets, barrels, ballistics of the .338 MOAG pics and story. THere are several pics of HUGE 300 grain bullets slamming into soft dirt at 300 yards and they look like little bits of a copper bomb! And these are 300 grain bullets with a sectional density of .375! If there is a match bullet that will hold together, this is it and it didn't.
The reason why these bullets "work" at longer ranges (850 and beyond) is because they still open up and cause damage even after they slow down. THe farthest I have seen the Accubond used on game was when Brian B nailed a speed goat at 949 yards and it did excellent. I need to test them at 1000 yards plus, but I know that match bullets will work this far out. My antelope at 1030 yards was only hit about 2 inches up from the brisket and it cut her from brisket to mid lung. She walked about 50 yards and fell down. I could not have asked for better performance.
I am and always will be a fan of the bullet that causes the most damage internally. I don't care if the bullet leaves an exit wound as long as the entire front half of the shoulders and chest cavity are Jello-ized. People who prefer a zip through so they have a blood trail to track are like boxers who will go for the technical knock-out in the tenth round instead of ending it with a bone-crushing uppercut for a knockout in the first round. Match bullets at extended ranges and accubonds or ballistic tips at long range do the uppercut! 1,2,3, KO!
Hope this helps.
reed mosser
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2003
- Messages
- 347
i know the match bullets some times work great. My friends use 338 matchking with good results on deer Im not arguing that. I have used the 80gr 224 match kings with great sucess. Im just saying that the 7mm 180 bergers bored holes through most things I shot with them. I shot a few groundhogs that i hit bone on that they performed good on but they bored a lot of holes straight through without opening up. They can work good but all I am saying they were the worst bullet I have ever used for deer hunting. The 224 80 grain matchkings but bigger holes in deer the the 7 180 bergers. I don't know why but thats my experience with match bullets for hunting. Believe me I don't know everything but I don't want any more deer to go through the agony the 180 bergers but them through. THanks Reed
