7mm mag and bergers for canadian game

Lapua Guy,

You say I get all fired up when someone questions me, hardly. I love a good debate, especially when someone beings something backed up with facts.

I simply did not agree with your comments and did not think it was good advice so I wanted to make sure that I made it clear that there was another way of thinking based strongly in fact.

You my friend are the one that flew off the handle when someone questioned your comments.

You can question me all you want, bring me data that proves my opinion wrong and I will admit your dead on correct but until then, I will stand by my main point, that being AGAIN:

If your paying big money to take a trip up north and you have no idea exactly the type of situation you will be in when the trigger breaks, you would be much wiser to choose a bullet that will work on any game, at any range and at any responsible angle of attack.

How is that attacking you personally?

As far as me loosing a potential customer, I never look to do that. That said, if a customer came to me talking about building a rifle and had the same opinions you did, he would get the exact same response I gave you.

I am not the type to nod my head in agreement just to make a rifle sale when someone believes something that is incorrect. That would take away from my credibility and also it is my responsibility to offer as much information to my customers as I can. If I see a situation where someone is obviously believing something that may cause issues down the road, it is my JOB to offer legit, proven experience to help them avoid a serious problem.

YES ITS MY JOB, I am a custom rifle manufacturer. I am paid to build rifles and build rifles that meet the goals of my customers. I do not have time to patronize customers just to get a sale. If they get offended when I offer them real world experience, not only my personal experience but also a vast amount of additional experience I have had others share with me that are in the same business, then, I guess they need to go to their local sporting goods store and get the head nods from the drones pushing the gun rag crazes. They would not be happy with my bluntness and I do not have time to try to convince them of anything.

I am blunt, on line, that comes off however you read it in your mind. I do not make posts with aggressive intentions, I offer blunt, to the point, example backed experience and that may come off aggressive when your the one I am replying in reference to but it has NOTHING to do with you personally, just the advice you put out for the world to see.
 
Lapua Guy,

You may want to go back and read the debate I had just a while back with Jon A. It was about the BC of the 265 gr TTSX. It did get a little heated but it remained 100% respectful on all sides and in the end, we both had valid points and we both left respecting each other. Jon A knows more about external ballistics then I every will and I freely admit that and I have no problem at all debating something.

In that example, I was posting my opinion, Jon came on with a physics based, factual response. In the end, I am sure we will both be proven right in some degree and I am sure he will be more right then I am and thats just fine.

Debates are fun, debates are how we learn, debates are how we see more of the world instead of only the nose on our face.

If you got offended by my comments, I apologize for that. Nothing personal was intended but if your offended just because I disagree with you, you need to toughen that skin if you want to get into a debate and hold your ground.
 
I personally, as a new long range shooter (by far not new to shooting), have enjoyed reading the subject being debated. I have never shot Bergers, so I bring nothing to the table. It does make me consider all of the options out there as far as ballistics and bullets are concerned. I have tested many factory handgun bullet's terminal ballistics in crude manners for my own knowledge, and I can definitely see where such a debate originates. I have also dressed and helped dress many white tail deer and observed bullets that were completely fragmented at close range and some that penciled through at longer ranges. I certainly respect everyone's experience and opinions and I have to say that I appreciate the vigor with which both gentlemen pressed on to make their points. And it is also commendable to see that both have apologized for any misunderstandings. Just my .02.
 
I don't mean to beat a dead horse but I asked for someone to bring some facts to the table yesterday. I have not seen anything yet from anyone else, just opinions, no hard numbers and no test cases. This is including what I brought to the table which was merely my opinion yesterday. I went back a looked at a few things and this is what I came up with.

First to answer the question about Berger not Knowing their VLD bullets were good as Hunting Bullets, read this post by Eric Stecker. I doubt he is being dishonest just because he is hoping to get a Military contract.

EricStecker
August 15, 2006, 12:09 PM
Snuffy,

I really appreciate your being a part of the testing of Berger Bullets for the NAHC. I read your post and wanted to clarify a few details.

Walt sold the company for the purpose of combining Berger's knowledge of how to make bullets with a large, high tech manufacturer (who was making the J4 bullet jacket) so that we could develop machines that would produce more bullets. The number one complaint we have received throughout the years is lack of availability.

For several years we worked on our own "hunting" bullet. We tried everything from bonding to core locking. We even put smaller bullets inside the jackets of larger bullets. The one thing that we could not achieve that we also insisted on was accuracy. We eventually gave up on the idea of producing a "hunting" bullet.

During the 2004 SHOT Show we were approached by The Best of the West which is a hunting TV show on cable. They asked us if we would like to sponsor their TV show. We told them that we do not make a hunting bullets and they replied "oh yes you do." They produced a small DVD player and played a video showing many animals being taken at short and long range. They had been using our Berger VLD bullets for years with great success.

One of the first things Walt (who is still very involved with the company and my grandfather-in-law) noticed is that most of the animals (from antelope to elk) were dropping when they were hit. A few others would run fifty feet or less then drop.

What we have learned is that the VLD bullet using its sharp nose penetrates through the initial 2" to 3" of tissue (including bone). After it penetratres into the animal it expands shedding 80% to 90% of its weight. These pieces of shrapnel create a devastating wound channel deep inside the animal's vital area. The result is an animal that drops and/or bleeds out very quickly.

Bullets that maintain their weight create wound channels that are the result of blunt trauma which is like hitting the inside of the animal with a hammer. Our bullets act more like a grenade creating a massive amount of tissue damage and hemraging deep inside the animal.

They are in fact our same match grade bullets used by competition target shooters around the world. The difference between our match grade bullets and others is the VLD nose profile which results in deep initial penetration. Also, since the J4 jacket is tapered at the mouth you still get expansion on long shots (elk have been taken with our bullets at 900+ yards).

I hope you try our bullets and expect that you will find out like many other hunters that Berger VLDs give you the result you want, great shot placement due to accuracy and an animal that falls quickly due to terminal performance.

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Berger Bullets

Next Case: Bullet Performance at Short Range Please Read Mr. Stecker's comments below

1. Craig,

I make the Bergers so you would be wise to take in some feedback from other hunters and shooters. However I can share with you my personal experience when using our VLD for game hunting.

When we learned that the VLD was being used very successfully on game up to elk and moose size Walt and I decided we should test this ourselves before we supported their use for hunting.

To make a long stort short over one year Walt and I took or watched shot 36 animals including wild hogs, goats, small deer and 4 large red stag bucks. Every single animal went down fast with most dropping in their tracks.

We tested the VLD in every caliber from 6mm and larger in the field and in media. All the tests (including those through bone at short range) show the same result. The VLD penetrate 2" to 3" before it starts to expand and then it expands rapidly distributing the majority of the bullet into the surrounding vital organs as schrapnel. This produces massive internal tissue damage that puts animals down fast. (Wound channel will be from 15" to 18" long which is more than enough for game.

We further sent bullets to 160 hunters through the North American Hunters Club so that we could get field tests from a cross section of shooters that most likely represented all the different types of hunters in the US. We received the highest satisfaction ranking among the items tested at that stage and not one animal was lost.

Since then many hunters have used the Berger VLD with great success. So far we have not received one report of a lost animal (I do not expect that it will never happen but it says something that it hasn't happened yet). The bullets have been written up in Handloader by John Barsness (August 2007) who tested the bullets himself. He has called them "the best deer killing bullet he has ever used". Those who are familiar with John Barsness know what weight that statement carries.

Regarding accuracy, Berger has been making bullets for competition target shooting since 1955. Shooters have used Berger all over the world to set records, win matches of every size and acheive their personal best. I am confident that we have the accuracy part sorted out.

Regards,
Eric


Here is John Barnness Take on the Myths of Target bullets and the phantom "superficial flesh wound and bullets blowing up on the outside of a critter"

The bad rap on such "tender"
bullets is that they'll sometimes
expand too quickly, creating a
surface wound rather than tearing
up the vitals inside the chest.
This never happened, even on
shoulder shots. I propped up one
dead lung-shot billy goat and
shot it through both shoulders at
10 yards with the .30-06. The bullet
went right through both
shoulder joints. Even the headshot
fallow doe showed the typical
VLD expansion: a tiny
entrance hole through the skull
just beneath the ear, then de-
struction of the far side of the
skull.
I'd hoped we'd take more like
50 animals during our stay, but
the last two days it rained hard
almost all day long. We did go
out, slipping and sliding in the
lodge's ATVs, and shot some
goats but not nearly as many as
on nicer days. Between the NAHC
deer hunters, the pigs in West
Virginia and the trip to New
Zealand, close to 200 big game
animals ranging from 40 to 400
pounds in weight have been
killed during field-testing of
VLDs. None failed to penetrate,
and in general the bullets killed
very quickly, understandable
when we opened up the animals
and saw the amount of tissue destruction.
The penetration results
in the Test Tube matched those
of many popular deer bullets,
about 11 inches, but some hunters
have used VLDs on big bull elk
and reported very quick kills.
I have yet to experience anything other than what has been described above and that's why I stated what I stated in my first post. I have hunted with outfitters that would not allow Nosler Accubonds in their camps. Does that make them a bad bullet? Of course not, I have no opinion on them or any experience with them. I have however been shooting VLD bullets since before 2004 on Elk size game. For all the above information just google Berger VLD Tests and you will find all of these posts. You can also get Mr. Barnness article on the Berger website. Happy Hunting!
On a side note, I don't shoot Berger Bullets anymore. I have switched to Swampy's JLK's. I was frustrated with Berger's varying so much lot to lot. I ordered some test bullets from Swampy a year and a half ago and compared them to some old bullets that Jimmy Knox built and they were spot on in all dimensions. No more having to change load or seating depth to match my BDC data. So as far as Bergers are concerned, I may not like them anymore, but they are still a darn good overall hunting bullet.
Kirby, I did go back and read a bunch of your posts. I do believe you have a lot to bring to the table, we just definately got off on the wrong foot on this conversation.
 
I just wanted to relate my personal experience with the 180 Bergers this past Sept. on an Elk hunt. I was shooting them @ 3150 out of my 7mmRHB, originally built by Kirby. We worked into an area where we could cover a lot of area, expecting a long shot just before dark but then the last thing I was expecting to happen, happened. Three large Bulls walked out of the Quakies at 175 yards! I intentionally held behind the right shoulder, having seen the results of Bergers hitting shoulders at these velocities, and fired. The bull flinched but was then stopped behind a small tree with the vitals covered so I could do nothing but wait, which seemed like hours, until finally he turned back and started walking angling away. I put the next round through the last rib angled to take out the far shoulder and saw the impact on the bull but with very little reaction on his part but to stop walking and look back my way. At this point I'm in shock and totally embarrassed when one of the other bulls ran up the hill and stopped in front of my bull preventing me from taking the third shot. Again a long wait and the bull is not looking like he is going to fall down anytime soon! Finally the bull clears and I put the next round behind the left shoulder. The bull sucked that one up like nothing so I put another one in him just a little further back to try to damage as much lung as possible. The bull was still standing !!!! One in the right side three in the left side at 200 yds or less and this Bull is still on his feet!! He finally fell over while I was loading back up.

During the autopsy it was determined that the first shot blew up just under the hide and did almost no damage to the lung, just a bunch of shrapnel in the on side ribs. The angle shot didn't even make it to the lungs let alone the far shoulder!! The third and fourth shots did tons of damage to the onside lung but nothing reached the far side lung or the ribcage on any of the shots.

Just because you built a long range rifle, there is no guaranty that all your shots will be long!!! The performance of the 180 Bergers, in my gun, at 200yds was not something to be proud of. In fact it's all on Video and pretty embarrassing to even watch.

I'm with Kirby on this subject, even though I know that any one of the shots would have dropped the Bull at longer range.----- RHB
 
7mmRHB said:
I just wanted to relate my personal experience with the 180 Bergers this past Sept. on an Elk hunt. I was shooting them @ 3150 out of my 7mmRHB, originally built by Kirby. We worked into an area where we could cover a lot of area, expecting a long shot just before dark but then the last thing I was expecting to happen, happened. Three large Bulls walked out of the Quakies at 175 yards! I intentionally held behind the right shoulder, having seen the results of Bergers hitting shoulders at these velocities, and fired. The bull flinched but was then stopped behind a small tree with the vitals covered so I could do nothing but wait, which seemed like hours, until finally he turned back and started walking angling away. I put the next round through the last rib angled to take out the far shoulder and saw the impact on the bull but with very little reaction on his part but to stop walking and look back my way. At this point I'm in shock and totally embarrassed when one of the other bulls ran up the hill and stopped in front of my bull preventing me from taking the third shot. Again a long wait and the bull is not looking like he is going to fall down anytime soon! Finally the bull clears and I put the next round behind the left shoulder. The bull sucked that one up like nothing so I put another one in him just a little further back to try to damage as much lung as possible. The bull was still standing !!!! One in the right side three in the left side at 200 yds or less and this Bull is still on his feet!! He finally fell over while I was loading back up.

During the autopsy it was determined that the first shot blew up just under the hide and did almost no damage to the lung, just a bunch of shrapnel in the on side ribs. The angle shot didn't even make it to the lungs let alone the far shoulder!! The third and fourth shots did tons of damage to the onside lung but nothing reached the far side lung or the ribcage on any of the shots.

Just because you built a long range rifle, there is no guaranty that all your shots will be long!!! The performance of the 180 Bergers, in my gun, at 200yds was not something to be proud of. In fact it's all on Video and pretty embarrassing to even watch.

I'm with Kirby on this subject, even though I know that any one of the shots would have dropped the Bull at longer range.----- RHB
Click to expand...

Great write up, this is one of the reasons why I use Barnes on my Moose hunts..the bush is too thick to have a moose running off. When I shoot something I want it to drop, or at least have a fatal wound on the first shot. There isn't time hunting in the thick bush or waters edge for a second or third shot.
 
7mmRHB said:
I just wanted to relate my personal experience with the 180 Bergers this past Sept. on an Elk hunt. I was shooting them @ 3150 out of my 7mmRHB, originally built by Kirby. We worked into an area where we could cover a lot of area, expecting a long shot just before dark but then the last thing I was expecting to happen, happened. Three large Bulls walked out of the Quakies at 175 yards! I intentionally held behind the right shoulder, having seen the results of Bergers hitting shoulders at these velocities, and fired. The bull flinched but was then stopped behind a small tree with the vitals covered so I could do nothing but wait, which seemed like hours, until finally he turned back and started walking angling away. I put the next round through the last rib angled to take out the far shoulder and saw the impact on the bull but with very little reaction on his part but to stop walking and look back my way. At this point I'm in shock and totally embarrassed when one of the other bulls ran up the hill and stopped in front of my bull preventing me from taking the third shot. Again a long wait and the bull is not looking like he is going to fall down anytime soon! Finally the bull clears and I put the next round behind the left shoulder. The bull sucked that one up like nothing so I put another one in him just a little further back to try to damage as much lung as possible. The bull was still standing !!!! One in the right side three in the left side at 200 yds or less and this Bull is still on his feet!! He finally fell over while I was loading back up.

During the autopsy it was determined that the first shot blew up just under the hide and did almost no damage to the lung, just a bunch of shrapnel in the on side ribs. The angle shot didn't even make it to the lungs let alone the far shoulder!! The third and fourth shots did tons of damage to the onside lung but nothing reached the far side lung or the ribcage on any of the shots.

Just because you built a long range rifle, there is no guaranty that all your shots will be long!!! The performance of the 180 Bergers, in my gun, at 200yds was not something to be proud of. In fact it's all on Video and pretty embarrassing to even watch.

I'm with Kirby on this subject, even though I know that any one of the shots would have dropped the Bull at longer range.----- RHB
Click to expand...


Ok, not trying to flame, just trying to understand. So you put four rounds of 180 gr Bergers into a Bull Elk and ever one failed to penetrate with effect. Not one past through both lungs.

Do I have this right?

It sounds like that if it didn't run after the first shot, you hit him pretty good and the very least broke him enough to not run off. I have seen Bulls wobble around for a spell before dying, but usually if you have a hit that doesn't penetrate, they run off, especially when you are shooting close range like that. But to say 4 shots and it didn't even penetrate through a set of lungs, well I have never seen that.

Again, I haven't seen it all. That must have been crazy to see in person.
 
I lost a very large mule deer buck with a 210 berger out of a 300 rum a few years ago.
550 yards, shot was on the shoulder exactly where I can not say but the thing went down like a stone. Watched said area for 5 minutes and never seen him move, but after his legs came up and back down he was mostly hidden in the alpine scrub.

Short trip back to camp to grab some gear and a buddy 60 minutes later, *** no deer, crawled a few feet then left on 3 legs, searched til dark 2.5 hours. snowed 6 inches that night nothing found in the am. blood trail was non existent may-be only a drop every 6-10 feet after the initial 30 feet of trail.

The last time I will ever walk away from a shot with-out walking a straight line to the "dead" animal. I mostly blame myself for that one but after 4 years of watching 200 grain accubonds perform on deer and elk. I am very sure the accubond would have anchored him for good. My friend clobbered a 1180 yard mule deer this year with the 200 ab and it expanded and penetrated in text book fasion.

And then there is the first shot blow-up on a mule deers nuckle that happened 2 seasons ago with 180 berger at 826 on a large MD buck. Second 180 berger went high shoulder and did the job. I don't necesarily blame the bullet as the shoulder knuckle is a hell of a mas of bone and it is best to avoid it with most bullets.

being that those were the only 2 animals I ever shot with bergers I was either dam unlucky or the bullets are a bit on the fragile side. If I ever use them again it will be a 6-8inch hold behind the shoulder into the lungs.
 
Interesting stories. I have never seen anything even remotely close to that happening. I live in the west and have seen probably 3-4 Elk, as many deer, and a bear or two killed every year for the last 10 years and have never seen an animal lost or not fall within sight. Cartridges for all involved were: 6mmx284, 243 Ackley, 6.5x284, 6.5-06AI, and more recently a string of dead critters from a 7mm Rem with 168's and 180's. The ranges I have seen were anywhere from 50 yards 1115 yards. I personally don't know of anyone who has lost an animal shooting VLD bullets. So you have to figure lowside of 30 ELk, 30 Deer, probably 15 Speedgoats, and 6 Black Bears that I can think of ,one Grizzly, and a Moose last year equals somewhere around 83 critters with out a failure. This is just counting the 4-5 guys I hunt with and animals I have personally seen shot, it is not counting the several other guys that have bought my buddies custom rifles that I know and have killed several critters as well.

I am not questioning anyone's honesty or trying to infer that the stories preceding this post didn't happen, I just have not seen it happen.

7mmRHB would you mind posting your video? I would love to see how that story unfolded. From what you see above is probably why I came off with such a strong opinion on VLD's and Canadian game.

I have not doubt that the VLD bullets might not be the first choice for today's "Hyper" Magnums but a 7mm Remington runs a 168 top end around 3150 and a 180 at 3010, a far cry from the Ultra's and the Allen Mag's. But, that is not what this this post was about, it was about a moderate cartridge and as I now know a highly debatable VLD bullet.

Keep the VLD experiences coming, we all are getting an education!!
 
7mmRHB,

I think an off-the-rack 30-06 loaded with Nosler Partitions would take a bull at 175 yds every time. Sometimes I think we over think this stuff.

-- gr8whyt
 
GoodGrouper and I have loaded Bergers in dozens of customers guns and have only two other stories like mine. 190 Berger in 300 Win. A shoulder hit at 150yds on a running Mulie, which kept right on running with a large chunk of shoulder blown away, and never recovered after several days looking.

The other story is just the opposite . Last falls limited entry Elk, Nebo unit in Utah. Five shots with 168 Bergers from a 7mm Rem. mag at 350 to 500 plus yds. Last shot put the Elk down ( high shoulder) the first four didn't open at all. Just penciled through. We believe the bullets were the Target version packaged incorrectly??

I remember thinking during the Elk fiasco I originally reported, that if I had my old 270 Win. with the 140 Accubonds, that Elk would have been DRT on the first shot. By the way, the Bull was a good mature 370 bull. --- RHB
 
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