600 yd rifle for Elk & Deer

[Kennibear]

You've got the 600yd rifle right now. Just improve what you've got. Better scope, maybe a trigger job. A better stock helps. My first upgrade would be a top quality laser rangefinder. Knowing the distance will improve your shots immensely.

Also consider a quality reloading set up. Getting your ammo dialed in is the best thing you can do. All the money you spend in reloading rolls into the next gun/caliber so it is the best money you can spend.

Just sayin'

 

[milkie62]

Well I would like a new gun but to spend alot more like alot of you have said is not really necessary.I do not really expect to be shooting over 600 yds---but it may be possible.I think I will just keep my 700 and have it tuned up.I have quite a few empties so I have a starting point for my reloading.Will concentrate on better optics also.And seeing is I have not used the gun in quite awhile sending it out and waiting it not a problem.Think I will be giving Hill Country a call here very shortly.I am also setting up an area in a spare room for reloading so my shooting interest should improve other than during just the hunting season.Will keep you all posted on how I make out. Thank you all that responded and Happy New Year..... Ed

 

[milkie62]

Back again.I at least took a look at the gun recently.LOL .Been wanting to makeup a 200 yd coyote/chuck rig out of an old Rem M788 .Seen some deals on the Nikon coyote special in 3x9.I may pick that up,throw it on the 700 and shoot some lead at my 200 yd range to see how it is.I have some machining skills from my machinist apprenticeship from the US cannon factory that I have not used in over 25 yrs.But I think I will be looking at some of the places that will rework my gun since I do start alot of projects that take forever to finish.Any other suggestions gunsmiths other than Hill Country that I already mentioned.I have to get on the ball since I will be going west in 2016.

 

[Michael Courtney]

My first post other than my initial welcome post.Been out of touch for a number of years because of work,kids house building etc.I have a number of different rifles in many calibers.I am looking to purchase a reasonable rifle/scope combination for Deer and Elk that will be effective out to maybe 600 yds.I have taken deer in the range of 290 -325 yds with a single shot but looking to up the anti when I go out west more often.
One option I have is to use my Rem 700 ADL in 7mm mag and use that as a base to build on.One problem I have with the gun is I have to load the magazine with the cartridges forward or the bolt will not go back far enough to engage the shell.
I will be reloading also and I have a 200 yd range right outside my kitchen door !!!!

I am open to suggestions on caliber and scope but was thinking along the lines of a Nikon Monarch or Leupold VariX-3.Would like to have a lighted reticle for low light conditions. Thanks Ed

Before tweaking the rifle, you need to do some work to evaluate its accuracy and velocity potential. A lot of ADLs have 22-24" barrels and generous chambers which often fail to produce expected velocities, like several hundred fps lower. Combined with lower than advertized BCs due to bullet manufacturer exaggerations and larger than ideal pitch and yaw from a thin barrel, and your trajectories and retained energy can be much, much worse than ballistics charts suggest.

Getting the needed accuracy and velocity usually means reloading, picking a good bullet and a temperature insensitive powder, and chronographing so you know your velocity. 600 yard hunting means you'll need MOA accuracy from 5 shot groups. I's start with the bullet and load, because that's what's actually gonna fly for 600 yards and kill the critter. I think the 162 grain AMAX and H1000 are a good place to start. The BC is really as high as advertised, and you're likely to get close to the rifle's accuracy potential without too much fiddling.

But before I even try developing a load with an ADL of unknown history, it would be helpful to know it's accuracy potential demonstrated so far. What group sizes have you measured, at what ranges, with what loads? If you haven't bothered to measure some group sizes, you need to do that first before you start spending money on a rifle with little potential.

 

[milkie62]

Thanks for your thoughts MC.I have always been a little concerned with the problem that I mentioned earlier on the bullets needing to be loaded forward in the magazine so that the bolt can come back to pick them up.I am no wheres near the shooting that some of you are but on my property off my porch I was able to take a deer at 290 yds with a neck shot from this rifle.Also I have never used any scopes other than tasco's so hopefully a decent glass may help some.I do have a 200 yd range out my back door.So considering just factory ammo at this time,what should I see for groups with a decent scope and my stock rifle to tell if what I have is a good starting point.My gun is in the mid 70's to early 80's era. Thanks Ed

 

[Michael Courtney]

Thanks for your thoughts MC.I have always been a little concerned with the problem that I mentioned earlier on the bullets needing to be loaded forward in the magazine so that the bolt can come back to pick them up.I am no wheres near the shooting that some of you are but on my property off my porch I was able to take a deer at 290 yds with a neck shot from this rifle.Also I have never used any scopes other than tasco's so hopefully a decent glass may help some.I do have a 200 yd range out my back door.So considering just factory ammo at this time,what should I see for groups with a decent scope and my stock rifle to tell if what I have is a good starting point.My gun is in the mid 70's to early 80's era. Thanks Ed

There were some good Rem 700s made in the 1970s and 1980s. If the barrel has been cared for and isn't shot out, you might have a shooter. I like your idea for a Leupold VX-III. I put 6.5-20's on our 600 yard guns. If your rifle will do it, that scope can get you shooting 3" groups at 600. The 3.5-10 and 4.5-14 scores are OK, but start to get iffy at 600 yards, especially for older eyes.

Factory ammo has several down sides for long range work. There are few (or no) heavy, high BC bullets available. Most factory ammo falls a couple hundred fps below factory velocity specs (esp in a shorter ADL barrel). You can't tune seating depth and powder charge for optimal accuracy. Other than getting a Leupold scope, becoming a reloader will do more for making your rifle shoot at long range than most of the customizations you've mentioned. A new 28" custom heavier barrel is your best shot short of becoming a reloader.

 

[gohring3006]

if it was me and I couldn't get that rifle to shoot I would send it off and have a perfect 600yrd rile built it would be a 3006 shooting 215 hybrids out of a 26in barrel that's what I would use for that range though it could go alot farther if you wanted its just cheap to reload and the cartridge is versitile. Just my opinion....

 

[milkie62]

There were some good Rem 700s made in the 1970s and 1980s. If the barrel has been cared for and isn't shot out, you might have a shooter. I like your idea for a Leupold VX-III. I put 6.5-20's on our 600 yard guns. If your rifle will do it, that scope can get you shooting 3" groups at 600. The 3.5-10 and 4.5-14 scores are OK, but start to get iffy at 600 yards, especially for older eyes.

Factory ammo has several down sides for long range work. There are few (or no) heavy, high BC bullets available. Most factory ammo falls a couple hundred fps below factory velocity specs (esp in a shorter ADL barrel). You can't tune seating depth and powder charge for optimal accuracy. Other than getting a Leupold scope, becoming a reloader will do more for making your rifle shoot at long range than most of the customizations you've mentioned. A new 28" custom heavier barrel is your best shot short of becoming a reloader.

Well MC I would almost think a 28" barrel is out of the question.I am 55 right now and in decent shape.Recoil does not bother me and I am a pretty decent shot.My gun locally would be a 400 yd max shot and out to 600 on Elk for maybe the 5 or 6 hunts I may go on in the future.I would hope that maybe Cabelas stocks the 6.5-20 scope so that I could compare it to a smaller one.My longest shot to date has been roughly 325 yds with a 3-9 power tasco out of my old reliable M788 Remington 308.What kind of weight do you think I would be looking at with your scope recommendation and 28 " barrel ?

 

[milkie62]

if it was me and I couldn't get that rifle to shoot I would send it off and have a perfect 600yrd rile built it would be a 3006 shooting 215 hybrids out of a 26in barrel that's what I would use for that range though it could go alot farther if you wanted its just cheap to reload and the cartridge is versitile. Just my opinion....

With retirement coming on I do not think a hybrid bullet would be within my budget with pricing I see on premium Nosler and hornady bullets.Maybe I am wrong.

 

[Michael Courtney]

Well MC I would almost think a 28" barrel is out of the question.I am 55 right now and in decent shape.Recoil does not bother me and I am a pretty decent shot.My gun locally would be a 400 yd max shot and out to 600 on Elk for maybe the 5 or 6 hunts I may go on in the future.I would hope that maybe Cabelas stocks the 6.5-20 scope so that I could compare it to a smaller one.My longest shot to date has been roughly 325 yds with a 3-9 power tasco out of my old reliable M788 Remington 308.What kind of weight do you think I would be looking at with your scope recommendation and 28 " barrel ?

Barrel weight is more strongly dependent on contour than length. A thin barrel can be plenty light, but when you are shooting factory ammo, the thin whippy barrels can have suboptimal accuracy for long range unless you can tune a handload into an accurate range.

My rule of thumb is that every 100 yards beyond 200 yards doubles the difficulty of a shot. A 600 yard shot at a game animal is 16 times more difficult than a 200 yard shot once inherent accuracy, shooting skill, wind drift, terrain, and range determination are all factored in. There are trade-offs in how that difficulty gap is bridged and it can be done reliably with either a light $3000 rifle or a heavy $1000 rifle with factory loads, but if you want to do it with a light $1000 rifle, you probably need to tune your own hand loads or else spend a lot of money trying 5-10 different factory loads until you finally find one that shoots well.

Personally, I've climbed up and down mountains with 12 lb rifles and also hauled thousands of pounds of meat out of difficult places. It seems silly to me to worry about a few more pounds in the rifle on the way in when success means hundreds of pounds of meat on the way out. My longest range rifle weighs about 18 pounds including the scope, bipod, and loaded magazine. Most real 600 yard rifles are going to weigh in at least 12 lbs. Unless the machining is excellent and all the tolerances are very tight, most 8 lb rifles are going to be shifting first shot cold bore point of impact all over the place with changes in temperature and altitude.

 

[gohring3006]

With retirement coming on I do not think a hybrid bullet would be within my budget with pricing I see on premium Nosler and hornady bullets.Maybe I am wrong.

no. I totally agree it takes a lot of money to shoot long range but I could get it done with 200gr. Gamekings seems like either the electric bill or some bergers anymore lol....

 

[milkie62]

Well there is a 300 yd range about 10 miles from me but they are not accepting anymore members at this time so I would have to go as a guest with a buddy which would increase my playtime at experimenting with my rifle.I could do a 300 yd range at my house but I would have to shoot off my 2nd floor balcony so that I would not have to have a 12 foot high backstop at that distance because of a slight crown in the field and that crown is solid rock so chance of bulldozing a channel through it.

maybe I should sell my 7mm ADL and use the money to offset a $2k Hill Country rifle.

 

[gohring3006]

Well there is a 300 yd range about 10 miles from me but they are not accepting anymore members at this time so I would have to go as a guest with a buddy which would increase my playtime at experimenting with my rifle.I could do a 300 yd range at my house but I would have to shoot off my 2nd floor balcony so that I would not have to have a 12 foot high backstop at that distance because of a slight crown in the field and that crown is solid rock so chance of bulldozing a channel through it.

maybe I should sell my 7mm ADL and use the money to offset a $2k Hill Country rifle.

I would get up on that balcony and shoot and for the 2k hill country rifle I say go for it sounds like a good retirement gift if you ask me if it was me it would be a 280 Ai. 26in.

 

[milkie62]

Selling and buying new is an option I like .But not to be disrespectful I think I would be staying with a std cartridge that I could buy box ammo for in case I got too lazy to reload.

Not to get off topic but i just got an email on a current sale of Weaver scopes.How are they ? Any opinions ?