Bud Martin
Well-Known Member
Here's a pic of a .264 140 smk recovered from a deer at 1070 yards. impact velocity of 1550+ or - a few fps. way to far and slow it would seem.
6.5 smk recovered
- Thread starter Bud Martin
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Was the deer dead?
Could you tell if the bullet had tumbled? That is a general characteristic of bullet wounds from bullets that do not expand and have a center of gravity that is not FOC. Tumbling will produce a very good wound channel.
Could you tell if the bullet had tumbled? That is a general characteristic of bullet wounds from bullets that do not expand and have a center of gravity that is not FOC. Tumbling will produce a very good wound channel.
Bud Martin
Well-Known Member
I do not think the bullet tumbled, there was a small entrance wound and a very clean wound channel. bullet passed thru part of one lung, the heart and stopped just under the skin on the far side. never touched a bone.
jeff 300
Well-Known Member
Man that looks like you could reload it again.LOL you need some bergers
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
Bud,
From my testing and some other's experience that's the performance I'd expect.
I couldn't get them to reliability expand at under 2000 FPS in media with a bone simulator.
The SMK's jacket it pretty tough.
From my testing and some other's experience that's the performance I'd expect.
I couldn't get them to reliability expand at under 2000 FPS in media with a bone simulator.
The SMK's jacket it pretty tough.
Bud Martin
Well-Known Member
I have a pic of a berger posted on here somewhere from last year. it was from the same rifle on a antelope at 925, the results were the same. and the berger velocity started 255 fps faster. at this range and velocity there is not a penny's worth of difference between the two.
Kevin Thomas
Well-Known Member
Bud,
It's not a bullet failure; you're using a bullet that was never designed to be a hunting bullet in the first place. The SMKs are used/allowed in US sniper ammunition (Lake City's M118LR) exactly BECAUSE it performs like a FMJ bullet, and is therefore not a violation of the Geneva or Hague accords. All this, despite its open-tip design. The MK designs actually have a fairly thin jacket, at least compared to their GameKing or ProHunter designs, but they are not designed to expand.
Bergers (the original design, now listed as their hunting bullets) have both a thinner jacket than the SMKs, and generally a higher BC (particularly true in the case of the old-style 6.5mm 140 MK). They're outstandingly accurate and will be arriving at the target with higher retained velocity. I'd recommend them as being a far better choice for this application.
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
It's not a bullet failure; you're using a bullet that was never designed to be a hunting bullet in the first place. The SMKs are used/allowed in US sniper ammunition (Lake City's M118LR) exactly BECAUSE it performs like a FMJ bullet, and is therefore not a violation of the Geneva or Hague accords. All this, despite its open-tip design. The MK designs actually have a fairly thin jacket, at least compared to their GameKing or ProHunter designs, but they are not designed to expand.
Bergers (the original design, now listed as their hunting bullets) have both a thinner jacket than the SMKs, and generally a higher BC (particularly true in the case of the old-style 6.5mm 140 MK). They're outstandingly accurate and will be arriving at the target with higher retained velocity. I'd recommend them as being a far better choice for this application.
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
Last edited:
This sucks because I plan on shooting the 210 bergers this year. I think both of you need to get a real bullet ,an Amax I'm betting it would have atleast deformed a bit
Bigbuck
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
GS Custom HV bullets are designed to expand down to 1500fps.
FWIW,
Steve
FWIW,
Steve
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Bergers are advertised to expand at 1800 fps.
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Steve, have you shot any deer or elk with the GS bullets yet?
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
If a person decides to play Fair Chase there are 3 rules
1 Only bullets allowed are FMJs and SMKs.
2. Last man still breathing wins.
Rule three is not germane to the thread so we will leave it out.
What one learns early on is that the SMK may or may not expand and that muzzle velocity will not force the issue. It is more likely to expand at higher velocities than lower velocities but cannot be depended on to do so. When playing by Fair Chase rules one is only interested in end results. Expansion is not an end result. An end result is a dead or incapacitated opponent. FMJ and SMK do that well enough. Most people who kill animals and such with SMKs understand the nature of the SMK and tolerate its because the end result is satisfactory. Therefore the first question I asked "Was the animal dead?" Dead is a good end result as long as it is not oneself.
When a bullet has reached a marginal state of momentum or energy, such as the one under discussion (1550 fps) it is really a waste of energy to have it expand because the expansion comes at the loss of penetration and bone breaking ability. The corollary to this is when faced with a charging grizzly or rhino do you wish to have an Amax in your gun or a FMJ/hardcast bullet.
This is not to say that expansion is not a good thing to have. It is a very good thing to have under most normal circumstance that most normal people hunt and shoot under. On the other hand when you push to the very outer limits of a rifle and cartridge's ability you may not want any expansion.
1 Only bullets allowed are FMJs and SMKs.
2. Last man still breathing wins.
Rule three is not germane to the thread so we will leave it out.
What one learns early on is that the SMK may or may not expand and that muzzle velocity will not force the issue. It is more likely to expand at higher velocities than lower velocities but cannot be depended on to do so. When playing by Fair Chase rules one is only interested in end results. Expansion is not an end result. An end result is a dead or incapacitated opponent. FMJ and SMK do that well enough. Most people who kill animals and such with SMKs understand the nature of the SMK and tolerate its because the end result is satisfactory. Therefore the first question I asked "Was the animal dead?" Dead is a good end result as long as it is not oneself.
When a bullet has reached a marginal state of momentum or energy, such as the one under discussion (1550 fps) it is really a waste of energy to have it expand because the expansion comes at the loss of penetration and bone breaking ability. The corollary to this is when faced with a charging grizzly or rhino do you wish to have an Amax in your gun or a FMJ/hardcast bullet.
This is not to say that expansion is not a good thing to have. It is a very good thing to have under most normal circumstance that most normal people hunt and shoot under. On the other hand when you push to the very outer limits of a rifle and cartridge's ability you may not want any expansion.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
This should stir some responses but hear goes=
When hunting- Use Hunting bullets !
When shooting paper- Use target bullets !
There are some very accurate hunting bullets so why should I use a target bullet and risk
it not performing even though it was a perfect hit.
Just my opinion.
J E CUSTOM
When hunting- Use Hunting bullets !
When shooting paper- Use target bullets !
There are some very accurate hunting bullets so why should I use a target bullet and risk
it not performing even though it was a perfect hit.
Just my opinion.
J E CUSTOM
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
I will offer more of what others are, an opinion.
1. If you want to hunt big game with match bullets past 800 yards, use at least a 7mm in caliber and use at least 175 gr of bullet weight. 30 cal is better and 338 is even better. Is it overkill, no such thing. Hitting the target accurately and killing the target quickly are the only goals. This is for deer and larger game.
2. If your going to shoot out to 1000 yards on big game, use a chambering that is large enough to insure retained muzzle velocity high enough to insure bullet expansion. If you do not have that muzzle velocity, do not shoot to that range.
3. If you think a 140 gr SMK in a 260 Rem or 6.5-284 or 6.5-06 class chambering is a 1000 yard big game chambering, refer to #1, #2 and results of the original post.
This is not bullet failure, its user error pure and simple. I would have been surpised only if the bullet expanded at this range on deer size game and would never even consider taking a shot at a deer at 1070 yards with a smaller 6.5mm chambering, hell, for any chambering for that matter.
Again, another opinion, the 6.5mm is not a 1000 yard big game chambering. Can you hit them, sure you can, can you kill them, sure you can, are there much better choices, the list is endless.
The 6.5 in this velocity class is in the same class as a 308 Win and most experienced 308 shooters will tell you its best to be kept under 800 yards max and better yet 600 yards or less, same as for the 6.5 in the same velocity class.
again, no surpise at all that you got these results.
The reason most of us recommend large calibers with heavy bullets is not because of ego but because that in the event of liminted bullet expansion, you are starting with a 30 cal or 338 cal bullet diameter and the heavy bullets help with close range impact as they have alot of mass and will sufficently penetrate even with alot of bullet weight loss.
Remember that the jacket material is very strong compared to a lead core. If you make the bullet smaller in diameter, you increase the percentage of the bullets cross section that is jacket material and less lead so that it will be able to resist expansion much better then say a 30 cal or 338 cal bullet.
There is a reason the big 30 cals and 338 cals are the most effective for big game hunting at long range, again, has nothing to do with ego as many that shoot smaller calibers would have you believe, it has to do with performance on game, pure and simple. This is just another documented example of why that is the recommendation by serious long range big game hunters.
1. If you want to hunt big game with match bullets past 800 yards, use at least a 7mm in caliber and use at least 175 gr of bullet weight. 30 cal is better and 338 is even better. Is it overkill, no such thing. Hitting the target accurately and killing the target quickly are the only goals. This is for deer and larger game.
2. If your going to shoot out to 1000 yards on big game, use a chambering that is large enough to insure retained muzzle velocity high enough to insure bullet expansion. If you do not have that muzzle velocity, do not shoot to that range.
3. If you think a 140 gr SMK in a 260 Rem or 6.5-284 or 6.5-06 class chambering is a 1000 yard big game chambering, refer to #1, #2 and results of the original post.
This is not bullet failure, its user error pure and simple. I would have been surpised only if the bullet expanded at this range on deer size game and would never even consider taking a shot at a deer at 1070 yards with a smaller 6.5mm chambering, hell, for any chambering for that matter.
Again, another opinion, the 6.5mm is not a 1000 yard big game chambering. Can you hit them, sure you can, can you kill them, sure you can, are there much better choices, the list is endless.
The 6.5 in this velocity class is in the same class as a 308 Win and most experienced 308 shooters will tell you its best to be kept under 800 yards max and better yet 600 yards or less, same as for the 6.5 in the same velocity class.
again, no surpise at all that you got these results.
The reason most of us recommend large calibers with heavy bullets is not because of ego but because that in the event of liminted bullet expansion, you are starting with a 30 cal or 338 cal bullet diameter and the heavy bullets help with close range impact as they have alot of mass and will sufficently penetrate even with alot of bullet weight loss.
Remember that the jacket material is very strong compared to a lead core. If you make the bullet smaller in diameter, you increase the percentage of the bullets cross section that is jacket material and less lead so that it will be able to resist expansion much better then say a 30 cal or 338 cal bullet.
There is a reason the big 30 cals and 338 cals are the most effective for big game hunting at long range, again, has nothing to do with ego as many that shoot smaller calibers would have you believe, it has to do with performance on game, pure and simple. This is just another documented example of why that is the recommendation by serious long range big game hunters.
