6.5 SAUM help please

cjuve

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
398
Location
SPRING CREEK, NEVADA
I skimmed through the last 5 pages to see if this had been recommended already, but if you intend to keep shooting Berger's, I'd say rather than targeting a specific jump/jam or pushing your brass so hard that its "single use only" I'd go back to your most consistent charge weight and perform the Berger OAL tuning exercise recommended in their reloading manual. Its 5 groups of 5 rounds loaded to different CBTO's which one of should be a sweet spot for the VLD type bullets. That's going to be way more time and cost efficient than anything else that's been recommend so far.

If you dont have the time/patience to do that simple test, then switch to a bullet that's easier to tune like the Berger Hybrid or the Hornady ELD. Your just going to burn out your barrel throat trying to make someone else's pet load run in your rifle. Do it the right way the first time or get a gun with factory ammo support.

Do this definitely if you have not done it, I have guns that shoot the Bergers at .015 off and others that need .120 off and some are happy at .050 off the differences can be dramatic, I don't buy that bergers need to be close to the lands to be accurate at all.
 

yoteslayer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2013
Messages
271
hey guys so I just had a new SAUM build it’s on a defiance deviant medium action 24” bartlein with a break, chambered with the .120 reamer 8.5 twist jewell trigger bedded in a manners game warden stock topped with a nightforce nxs it was built by mike at hell’s canyon armory. So I started my load development I’m shooting 140 vld hunters and h1000 .020” off. Started at 58gn and worked up .5gn to 61.5 and shot 5 shot groups and the best group I got was .5” with 60gn and with 60.5 shot bout .75-1” so I loaded up 59.8-60.4 and shot them today and didn’t have a group under an inch and a half. What happened?? It’s all brand new hornady brass neck sizeed and trimmed uniform. I’m not a master reloaded by any means but this rifle should shoot very well given all the parts I used and the smith I had build it the barrel is a 2b contour and I’m not letting it get hot it gets warm but definitely not hot today I shot three shot groups in about five minutes so I don’t think it’s to hot and the weather was only about 60 degrees. Does any one know what I’m doing wrong or something I should change?? I’m shooting out of a lead sled and have felt really good about my shots so I don’t think it’s me but most of my groups are inch and a half or bigger but most of the time it will put two shots in the same hole then jump over to the right usually an inch-inch n a half and put the others in another ragged hole im just not getting any consistency in my groups. For what it’s worth my buddy has the identical gun built at the exact time by mike as well and his is doing pretty much the same thing we shot together today and his groups were doing the same thing except in vertical groups vs horizontal like mine. Any advise tips or knowledge is greatly appreciated!
Thanks
 

yoteslayer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2013
Messages
271
Not sure if this has been mentioned but how much are you sizing your brass if you set die up like the dies tell you to the round will be to loose in the chamber I would measure to see how much you are bumping back the I would probably do around 2 thousandth or till the round chamber easily another thing does the stock have the sling attachment studs installed I had a rifle one time that shot great then didn’t and I narrowed it down to them so now I take them out when shooting groups good luck
 

WSM

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
90
Location
Wyoming
Not sure if this has been mentioned but how much are you sizing your brass if you set die up like the dies tell you to the round will be to loose in the chamber I would measure to see how much you are bumping back the I would probably do around 2 thousandth or till the round chamber easily another thing does the stock have the sling attachment studs installed I had a rifle one time that shot great then didn’t and I narrowed it down to them so now I take them out when shooting groups good luck
hey guys so I just had a new SAUM build it’s on a defiance deviant medium action 24” bartlein with a break, chambered with the .120 reamer 8.5 twist jewell trigger bedded in a manners game warden stock topped with a nightforce nxs it was built by mike at hell’s canyon armory. So I started my load development I’m shooting 140 vld hunters and h1000 .020” off. Started at 58gn and worked up .5gn to 61.5 and shot 5 shot groups and the best group I got was .5” with 60gn and with 60.5 shot bout .75-1” so I loaded up 59.8-60.4 and shot them today and didn’t have a group under an inch and a half. What happened?? It’s all brand new hornady brass neck sizeed and trimmed uniform. I’m not a master reloaded by any means but this rifle should shoot very well given all the parts I used and the smith I had build it the barrel is a 2b contour and I’m not letting it get hot it gets warm but definitely not hot today I shot three shot groups in about five minutes so I don’t think it’s to hot and the weather was only about 60 degrees. Does any one know what I’m doing wrong or something I should change?? I’m shooting out of a lead sled and have felt really good about my shots so I don’t think it’s me but most of my groups are inch and a half or bigger but most of the time it will put two shots in the same hole then jump over to the right usually an inch-inch n a half and put the others in another ragged hole im just not getting any consistency in my groups. For what it’s worth my buddy has the identical gun built at the exact time by mike as well and his is doing pretty much the same thing we shot together today and his groups were doing the same thing except in vertical groups vs horizontal like mine. Any advise tips or knowledge is greatly appreciated!
Thanks
seen this a lot. barrel is not broke in. shoot and clean shoot and clean shoot and clean till it gets broke in. may take 30 rounds. it will hold a group when brake in complete.
 

65WSM

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
527
Location
Near Mt Rainier
hey guys so I just had a new SAUM build it’s on a defiance deviant medium action 24” bartlein with a break, chambered with the .120 reamer 8.5 twist jewell trigger bedded in a manners game warden stock topped with a nightforce nxs it was built by mike at hell’s canyon armory. So I started my load development I’m shooting 140 vld hunters and h1000 .020” off. Started at 58gn and worked up .5gn to 61.5 and shot 5 shot groups and the best group I got was .5” with 60gn and with 60.5 shot bout .75-1” so I loaded up 59.8-60.4 and shot them today and didn’t have a group under an inch and a half. What happened?? It’s all brand new hornady brass neck sizeed and trimmed uniform. I’m not a master reloaded by any means but this rifle should shoot very well given all the parts I used and the smith I had build it the barrel is a 2b contour and I’m not letting it get hot it gets warm but definitely not hot today I shot three shot groups in about five minutes so I don’t think it’s to hot and the weather was only about 60 degrees. Does any one know what I’m doing wrong or something I should change?? I’m shooting out of a lead sled and have felt really good about my shots so I don’t think it’s me but most of my groups are inch and a half or bigger but most of the time it will put two shots in the same hole then jump over to the right usually an inch-inch n a half and put the others in another ragged hole im just not getting any consistency in my groups. For what it’s worth my buddy has the identical gun built at the exact time by mike as well and his is doing pretty much the same thing we shot together today and his groups were doing the same thing except in vertical groups vs horizontal like mine. Any advise tips or knowledge is greatly appreciated!
Thanks
I am just trying to figure out why you would want to use H1000? I have tried a number of powders over the years in the Winchester Short Magnum, and have settled on Reloader 26. I talked to Travis, from R-Bros, on Friday. I did not tell him about my work with the 6.5 WSM. Travis and his brothers each have lightweight 24in barreled 6.5 WSM rifles for backpack deer hunting in the Cascades. They are using R-26 and getting 3330fps from the 140 Berger Hunting. Again, I did not prompt him but he was tickled with that combination enough to tell anyone going through the door. Travis builds >300 rifles a year at over $5000 each. Travis shoots each rifle off a bipod in the field before he gives the target, rifle and load data to the customer.
 

markl

New Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
2
I measured the chamber with the hornady oal tool and a micrometer mine measured out at 3.232... when I load a bullet and close the bolt it still feels the same as the ones i have loaded .020 and when I eject a loaded round there is no resistance at all I just see very faint marks on the bullet when I pull it out...
I am a Benchrest shooter, I advise you to Look at YouTube wheeler accuracy, how to find your lands exactly. This works brilliant, also use Lapua or Norma brass. It is expensive but you have a high end rifle so use the best.
 

6MM06AI

Well-Known Member
LRH Team Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
145
Location
SE. Montana
I am just trying to figure out why you would want to use H1000? I have tried a number of powders over the years in the Winchester Short Magnum, and have settled on Reloader 26. I talked to Travis, from R-Bros, on Friday. I did not tell him about my work with the 6.5 WSM. Travis and his brothers each have lightweight 24in barreled 6.5 WSM rifles for backpack deer hunting in the Cascades. They are using R-26 and getting 3330fps from the 140 Berger Hunting. Again, I did not prompt him but he was tickled with that combination enough to tell anyone going through the door. Travis builds >300 rifles a year at over $5000 each. Travis shoots each rifle off a bipod in the field before he gives the target, rifle and load data to the customer.
Thanks for tip on the reloader26, I have a hard time getting to 3150 with h1000 out of my 6.5wsm
 

300rum

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
564
Location
AB, Canada
Hi,

First BERGERS like to shoot the best 0.010-0.012 INSIDE THE LAND (JAMMED) or 0.050 AWAY FROM THE LAND.
Just reload on this 2 options and your group will improved drastically
 

Mileshotj

Member
LRH Team Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Messages
14
Location
Denton, texas
hey guys so I just had a new SAUM build it’s on a defiance deviant medium action 24” bartlein with a break, chambered with the .120 reamer 8.5 twist jewell trigger bedded in a manners game warden stock topped with a nightforce nxs it was built by mike at hell’s canyon armory. So I started my load development I’m shooting 140 vld hunters and h1000 .020” off. Started at 58gn and worked up .5gn to 61.5 and shot 5 shot groups and the best group I got was .5” with 60gn and with 60.5 shot bout .75-1” so I loaded up 59.8-60.4 and shot them today and didn’t have a group under an inch and a half. What happened?? It’s all brand new hornady brass neck sizeed and trimmed uniform. I’m not a master reloaded by any means but this rifle should shoot very well given all the parts I used and the smith I had build it the barrel is a 2b contour and I’m not letting it get hot it gets warm but definitely not hot today I shot three shot groups in about five minutes so I don’t think it’s to hot and the weather was only about 60 degrees. Does any one know what I’m doing wrong or something I should change?? I’m shooting out of a lead sled and have felt really good about my shots so I don’t think it’s me but most of my groups are inch and a half or bigger but most of the time it will put two shots in the same hole then jump over to the right usually an inch-inch n a half and put the others in another ragged hole im just not getting any consistency in my groups. For what it’s worth my buddy has the identical gun built at the exact time by mike as well and his is doing pretty much the same thing we shot together today and his groups were doing the same thing except in vertical groups vs horizontal like mine. Any advise tips or knowledge is greatly appreciated!
Thanks
I shoot a 6.5 SAUM my load is 59.5gr H1000
215M primers
147gr ELD M
I have been seating right in the lands and neck tension is very important with this caliber also.
I’m getting 3030fps with a 4SD and 8ES
The ELD’s have been the only bullet to get me these results, never could get the Bergers to settle in......may be worth a try and good luck!
 

Doug Herold

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2017
Messages
187
^^^ This. Do not bother trying to nail down an accuracy load with a new barrel until at least 100 rounds down it. Have you ever noticed the recoil on a new rifle increase after about 100-150 rounds fired? With all my Proof carbon barrels, velocity would very slowly increase, then it was like a switch went on once I hit 150 rounds and the velocity and pressure spiked. For example, in my 7mm-300wsm, the velocity I could get from the Berger 180gr VLD over 67.0grs of H1000 when the barrel was new, was nearly the exact same velocity I now get from 65.4grs after 160 documented rounds fired.
Just load all your brass with a safe load (I'd load 61.4grs of H1000) and go have fun with it at distance on steel and stop trying to micro in on a load prematurely.

Yes, yes, and yes...
Your gun is not going to shoot at it’s best until the barrel is broke in. In addition to the GREAT information these guys have provided, I’ll chip in my two cents: The 6.5Gap4s I had built for me this year was depressing until it finally broke in. I still half way hate it even though I center punched a groundhog at 600 yds with it... Anyway... I use the 140 gr Hybrid. Much more forgiving regarding seating depth. George Gardner supposedly trims the brass to 2.015” (working well for me). Only use a Lab Radar or Magneto Speed. Anything else is junk and will not give you useful data. Your gun probably is NOT gonna shoot accurately and the velocity is not going to stabilize until 100-150 rounds are out-the-tube. So stop chasing your tail. Once the gun is properly broken in, it may very well like being shot dirty... AND you may have to put a few rounds through it to get to “dirty”. ( I’ve had some guns that I didn’t clean till 150 rounds passed through the barrel; I know a Seal who simply does not clean his barrel unless it doesn’t shoot accurately). Bottom Line: You probably are shooting a gun which is not broke in, perhaps one which will like being dirty, which you MUST keep clean until it’s broken in. Finally, sell the lead sled. I hope your gun is wearing a break... Absolutely zero recoil.
Ohh yeah, I anneal the Hornady brass after 3 rounds.
 

Unclenick

New Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Messages
4
Location
Ohio
In MOST rifles the Berger VLD's shoot best jammed, but it's not universally true. This article by Berger's Eric Stecker explains it. They used to recommend jamming all VLD's and just accepted that some rifles couldn't shoot them. But feedback from customers told them there were many of those that could be brought in by adding some jump.

Writing in the 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, the late Dan Hackett described a 40X in 220 Swift that he could not get to shoot 5-shot groups to better than about half an inch. He relied on the conventional wisdom to load 0.020" off the lands, another one of those things that work with a lot of rifle and bullet combinations, but not all. Then one day, when switching bullets, he turned the micrometer adjustment on his seating die the wrong way, going 0.015 in instead of out, as that bullet needed to be 0.020" off the lands. So he was seating 0.050" off the lands instead. He got 20 rounds loaded before he noticed the error. He considered pulling the bullets to reseat them but decided just to shoot them for trigger practice instead. To his astonishment, he got two 0.250" groups and two true bughole groups in the 1's.

Item number 3. in this old post describes and experience by Somchem with load development for hunting rifles, a service they offered a couple or three decades ago. Note that the rifle they describe is one with a worn out throat, yet by getting back off the lands far enough it became the most accurate hunting rifle they had ever developed a load for. That is followed by a copy of Randolf Constantine's old Precision Shooting article on Audette ladders.

There are complex dynamics at work in a firing rifle. Three observable factors seem to reveal themselves. First and best known is the muzzle swing flat spot the Auddette ladder identifies. You can read Constantine's description at the end of the page in the last link. In this old thread on another forum starting with post #13, I helped a shooter analyze his Audette ladder, which looked pretty scattered but which resolved with the help of a few tools. Today, the OnTarget's TDS software will do that for you.

Second is Chris Long's Optimum Barrel Time (OBT) theory and the OBT round robin as Dan Newberry has been citing to explain his Optimum Charge Weight (OCW) load development concept and theory for some time. This is the notion of a pressure wave traveling at the speed of sound in a barrel. You can actually see them superimposed on the pressure wave in a strain gauge pressure plot.

Third, the velocity node theory has made more noise lately on YouTube and in the various shooting forums. I first heard of this in the same 1995 Precision Shooting Guide in a section by Dave Milosovich (page 91), but the nodes were apparently already well-known to benchrest shooters when he was writing that; just not to me before then. A number of people shoot ladders based exclusively on these multiple flat spots in velocity that occur as you work a load up, and in the few instances where I have examined their plots closely they appear to have spacing that is reasonably similar to the uneven spacing of Long's calculated OBT nodes, so they may well be caused by interaction with pressure waves, but have the advantage that you can measure their location with a chronograph where the OBT nodes have to be calculated and that calculation can be off a couple of percent due to speed of sound differences in different kinds of steel.

I believe changing bullet seating depth affects the timing of the pressure wave and therefore the timing of the phases of the wave relative to bullet position in the barrel. However, like everything else in interior ballistics, it isn't that simple. Because a case neck expands open to release the bullet at firing, there is a brief period during the bullet jump that allows gas to bypass the bullet until it obturates the bore. You can see a brief stall in pressure rise on a sufficient resolution pressure plot. There are some in the late Dr. Lloyd Brownell's 1965 DuPont funded study of pressure along with an explanation of gas bypass and why lack of it increases pressure when a bullet has no jump or very little (up to about 20% more pressure with a bullet in the lands rather than back from the throat by 0.030").

In the meanwhile, something Chris Long's theory and Randolf Constantines explanations both missed is that barrel "harmonics" do not determine the angular bend location of a muzzle at the moment the bullet leaves. There is harmonic ringing after it is gone, to be sure, but former Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories engineer Varmint Al has done analysis showing that recoil moment and pressure distortion of the barrel actually cause and determine the timing of muzzle deflection during firing.

As a result of all the above, I don't any longer believe that any one of the various tuning theories is comprehensive. I believe peak accuracy occurs when the flat spots in an Audette Ladder due to muzzle deflection and a velocity or pressure wave node are coincident and that tuning seating depth and powder charge and type (different burn rates and priming affect barrel time) are all working toward that objective. So if you want to reach your rifle's accuracy potential, you have your work cut out for you arriving at that sort of synchronized interior ballistic performance.

Mind you, the success of all the above depend on you being able to prime properly (-0.003" reconsolidation of the primer in most instances), and load the round to be concentric about its long axis, and that you can control not only powder charge weight but its water content and its packing density in the case. It assumes you have a rifle that is not in need of lug lapping, recrowning, new bedding or any of the other usual accuracy basics. So all the ducks have to be in a row.

"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity."
Homer Powley
 
Last edited:

JD250

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
98
Location
Central california
Thanks again for all this input guys, I’m going to hopefully make it out again today and I’m going to load another round using the Berger seating depth method and see where that leaves me I have a box of the 140 elites that I may try if I can’t find anything with the normal 140vld. Problem is I’m leaving for Wyoming in less than two weeks and I really want to shoot this gun. After today I should have about 115 rounds down the tube so fingers crossed I’ll find something that will give me confidence to reach out to atleast 500 if need be.
 

JD250

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
98
Location
Central california
Racing to finish load development with a new rifle just before an expensive hunt or an important match is a time-honored shooting sports tradition. Best of luck with it!
Haha yes it is! I’m hopeful that I can get it down to 1/2 moa and then I’ll be happy and confident enough with it to take it with me and then play with it some more on the off season and really get it dialed. So much great information has been shared from the members on her so I’m going to take it all in and see what I come up with I have high hopes for the gun still.
 

Recent Posts

Top