460 wby "ok for Elk"???
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specweldtom
Well-Known Member
Sounds like someone spooked you about the .460 recoil. Not so with 300 - 350gr bullets and the Accubrake. The Mk V .460 has a stock geometry that is very comfortable to me, and also manages recoil very well. I've shot all the Wby boomers, and with the basic .378 case cartridges, rifle weight and bullet weight mostly determine felt recoil. As rifle weight goes down and/or bullet weight goes up, recoil energy increases, but for some reason, felt recoil doesn't track. I think the difference is recoil velocity. The .460 with 350gr bullets doesn't seem to me to kick as hard as a .338 x .378 with the 300gr mk's. (Both rifles about the same weight). Don't let concern about recoil deter you from a .460. It don't have to be bad, but is a little intense with the 500gr factory ammo, or hard loaded 500gr handloads. Just load lighter bullets, and if you like, load down to .458 Win levels, or something equally wuss. (see my signature)
Speaking of bullets, a .458 bullet will not do excessive tissue damage. The jackets tend to be thicker and the velocities tend to be low enough to prevent grenading. You really do have to have a good solid backstop though. No different than the .30 x .378 or the .338 x .378, both of which I have hunted with and killed deer sized game, with considerable tissue damage, but with chest shots I didn't lose any more meat than with a 7-08, which I have also used (and like).
If there is a a Cabela's anywhere nearby, you might be able to handle and compare some of the big Weatherbys.
The .30 x .378 is a fine "all-around" cartridge, if there is such a thing. If you look at factory ammo or components though, they're only about 10% cheaper on average. Not much cheaper to shoot than a .460. Definitely better bullet choices available though, particularly for long range work.
There is a lot of historical evidence of very long range kills with the Sharps .45-70 to .45-120 cartridges. Modern .458 bullets are available for the .460 that will outperform the old .45 cal lead bullets used in the Sharps back in the day, and a .460 will blow the doors off any of the old Sharps cartridges. I have some 500gr Barnes X's that I turned boattails on, but never fired them. Ought to be a fine long range load in a .460 at about 2650fps, but belly-shooting with them would get real tiresome. Maybe the Accubrake would make them usable in the prone position?
Like to say this is just my 2 cents worth, but I got way to long-winded for that, Tom
Speaking of bullets, a .458 bullet will not do excessive tissue damage. The jackets tend to be thicker and the velocities tend to be low enough to prevent grenading. You really do have to have a good solid backstop though. No different than the .30 x .378 or the .338 x .378, both of which I have hunted with and killed deer sized game, with considerable tissue damage, but with chest shots I didn't lose any more meat than with a 7-08, which I have also used (and like).
If there is a a Cabela's anywhere nearby, you might be able to handle and compare some of the big Weatherbys.
The .30 x .378 is a fine "all-around" cartridge, if there is such a thing. If you look at factory ammo or components though, they're only about 10% cheaper on average. Not much cheaper to shoot than a .460. Definitely better bullet choices available though, particularly for long range work.
There is a lot of historical evidence of very long range kills with the Sharps .45-70 to .45-120 cartridges. Modern .458 bullets are available for the .460 that will outperform the old .45 cal lead bullets used in the Sharps back in the day, and a .460 will blow the doors off any of the old Sharps cartridges. I have some 500gr Barnes X's that I turned boattails on, but never fired them. Ought to be a fine long range load in a .460 at about 2650fps, but belly-shooting with them would get real tiresome. Maybe the Accubrake would make them usable in the prone position?
Like to say this is just my 2 cents worth, but I got way to long-winded for that, Tom
D.ID
Well-Known Member
Could one of you guys with some first hand experience in the 460 say what you would consider maximum accurate effective range. What is a long shot for a modern 45 caliber boomer? Just curious.
specweldtom
Well-Known Member
Without any experience at long range with the .460, it would make sense to pick a bullet with the highest ballistic coefficient available and run the exterior ballistics at achieveable velocities to determine where that bullet would drop out of supersonic flight. That should be a good indicator of maximum accurate range. I have found that big, heavy bullets tend to have low standard deviations and high accuracy in a good rifle. The .460's I've shot could all do 1 moa or better with several different loads, but that was at only 100 yds.
I don't have my old loading data in the house (it's late again) or I'd run the ballistics. I'll try to remember to do it tomorrow. I'm curious now. I'm guessing it will be close to 1000 yds before it goes transonic.
I don't know if we're helping with the original question in this thread, but it is interesting. Years ago I talked to Connie at Barnes about them making a high B/C bullet, specifically a 400 - 500gr boattail solid. She was polite, but didn't remember anyone else ever expressing any interest in shooting long range with a .460, so they weren't interested either. Too expensive to tool up for a bullet that no one wanted. I dropped it there and decided to turn some of my own, but as I said, I never loaded them.
Tom
I don't have my old loading data in the house (it's late again) or I'd run the ballistics. I'll try to remember to do it tomorrow. I'm curious now. I'm guessing it will be close to 1000 yds before it goes transonic.
I don't know if we're helping with the original question in this thread, but it is interesting. Years ago I talked to Connie at Barnes about them making a high B/C bullet, specifically a 400 - 500gr boattail solid. She was polite, but didn't remember anyone else ever expressing any interest in shooting long range with a .460, so they weren't interested either. Too expensive to tool up for a bullet that no one wanted. I dropped it there and decided to turn some of my own, but as I said, I never loaded them.
Tom
I thought about taking the accubrake or sending it to a machine shop i know who make chokes etc and have them making a longer version with more gas ports?.
Longer shot i know of with a .458 bullet is 1750 yards . 45/70 350 grain 2100 fps solid out of a sharps replica .I know if a 45/70 can do it a 460 can do it faster therefore more accurate. How about this @ 3200 fps ?
Hornady LEVERevolution Bullets 458 Caliber (458 Diameter) 325 Grain Flex Tip eXpanding Box of 50 - MidwayUSA
Longer shot i know of with a .458 bullet is 1750 yards . 45/70 350 grain 2100 fps solid out of a sharps replica .I know if a 45/70 can do it a 460 can do it faster therefore more accurate. How about this @ 3200 fps ?
Hornady LEVERevolution Bullets 458 Caliber (458 Diameter) 325 Grain Flex Tip eXpanding Box of 50 - MidwayUSA
specweldtom
Well-Known Member
I don't know if the Leverevolution 325gr bullets would stay together at 3000+ fps. I did blow up some 405gr Speer jacketed flat nose bullets. They were for 45-70's though. I didn't get velocity on any of them, just -error-, because the chronograph couldn't read pieces I guess. I was surprised they didn't take out my skyscreens. Nothing printed at 100 yds, not even shrapnel.
I just ran some numbers on Barnes X bullets that I had info on. I think they make .458 Triple Shocks now that are better bullets than the X's. I always had to molycoat the X's to stop them from severely copper fouling the bore.
All calculations are at 25' above sea level, 29.5 barometer, 90% relative humidity, 70 deg F, and no wind. At higher (Elk) elevations and lower relative humidity, the performance would improve significantly. The numbers listed are not carved in stone, but are reasonably close.
A 350gr Barnes XFB (with G1 b/c of .402) at 2950 fps at the muzzle will be at 1200 fps (still supersonic) and 1000 ft/lbs of energy at 1000 yds. It will retain Elk killing energy (2000 ft/lbs) at 680 yds. at 1600 fps.
A 400gr Barnes XFB (G1 b/c .457) at 2750 fps M/V will be at 1250fps at 1000 yds and 1300 ft/lbs of energy. It will still have 2000 ft/lbs energy at 700 yds and 1450 fps.
A 500gr Barnes XFB (G1 b/c .526) at 2600 fps M/V will be at 1250 fps at 1000 yds, and 1800 ft/lbs. It will still have 2000 ft/lbs at 920 yds and 1275 fps.
From this data, the 350gr bullet would be a good all around choice from the standpoint of performance and minimal discomfort. All should still be accurate at 1000 yds, and the 500gr would extend Elk killing range to a practical 1000 yds alsol
I didn't calculate bullet path for any of them, but if I did, I would work from a 200yd zero (for a probable 300 yd point blank range}, and shoot at 300. 600, and 1000 yds if possible, to find out what the bullet is really doing. Exterior ballistics is just a good starting place.
-Begin edit- I ran bullet paths for all three bullets with a 200 yd zero. I didn't believe the results and ran them again.
The350gr and the 500gr are both down 360" at 1000 yds. The 400gr is down 355". The parabolas are slightly different, with the 350gr being flatter at first and then dropping off faster. No surprise. The essentially identical drop at 1K was a big surprise though. Pretty much confirms that the 350gr would be the all-around choice. Big enough to kill anything in our hemisphere, slightly flatter shooting out to about 600 yds, over 2000 ft/lbs retained energy at that range, and very mild recoil to boot. Sounds like Elk poison to me. Or Bear, or Moose, or a Toyota.
I used the G1 B/C formula because it was what Barnes was using, I'm used to it, and I think it works O.K. with flat base bullets. Remember that these numbers are not exact, but are good enough for comparing bullet performance. -End of edit-
A couple of reminders: long eye relief scope, and a solid backstop. These big bullets are going to pass through **** near any game animal and still be hard to stop. Dirt is good. Many years ago, I dug 2 factory Hornady round nose "solids" out of the berm at the local range. They were about 4 feet into it. I did my best to repair the berm, but the club newsletter reported that a "large burrowing animal had damaged the 100 yd berm on the big range".........
Good luck whatever you decide. Let us know. Tom
I just ran some numbers on Barnes X bullets that I had info on. I think they make .458 Triple Shocks now that are better bullets than the X's. I always had to molycoat the X's to stop them from severely copper fouling the bore.
All calculations are at 25' above sea level, 29.5 barometer, 90% relative humidity, 70 deg F, and no wind. At higher (Elk) elevations and lower relative humidity, the performance would improve significantly. The numbers listed are not carved in stone, but are reasonably close.
A 350gr Barnes XFB (with G1 b/c of .402) at 2950 fps at the muzzle will be at 1200 fps (still supersonic) and 1000 ft/lbs of energy at 1000 yds. It will retain Elk killing energy (2000 ft/lbs) at 680 yds. at 1600 fps.
A 400gr Barnes XFB (G1 b/c .457) at 2750 fps M/V will be at 1250fps at 1000 yds and 1300 ft/lbs of energy. It will still have 2000 ft/lbs energy at 700 yds and 1450 fps.
A 500gr Barnes XFB (G1 b/c .526) at 2600 fps M/V will be at 1250 fps at 1000 yds, and 1800 ft/lbs. It will still have 2000 ft/lbs at 920 yds and 1275 fps.
From this data, the 350gr bullet would be a good all around choice from the standpoint of performance and minimal discomfort. All should still be accurate at 1000 yds, and the 500gr would extend Elk killing range to a practical 1000 yds alsol
I didn't calculate bullet path for any of them, but if I did, I would work from a 200yd zero (for a probable 300 yd point blank range}, and shoot at 300. 600, and 1000 yds if possible, to find out what the bullet is really doing. Exterior ballistics is just a good starting place.
-Begin edit- I ran bullet paths for all three bullets with a 200 yd zero. I didn't believe the results and ran them again.
The350gr and the 500gr are both down 360" at 1000 yds. The 400gr is down 355". The parabolas are slightly different, with the 350gr being flatter at first and then dropping off faster. No surprise. The essentially identical drop at 1K was a big surprise though. Pretty much confirms that the 350gr would be the all-around choice. Big enough to kill anything in our hemisphere, slightly flatter shooting out to about 600 yds, over 2000 ft/lbs retained energy at that range, and very mild recoil to boot. Sounds like Elk poison to me. Or Bear, or Moose, or a Toyota.
I used the G1 B/C formula because it was what Barnes was using, I'm used to it, and I think it works O.K. with flat base bullets. Remember that these numbers are not exact, but are good enough for comparing bullet performance. -End of edit-
A couple of reminders: long eye relief scope, and a solid backstop. These big bullets are going to pass through **** near any game animal and still be hard to stop. Dirt is good. Many years ago, I dug 2 factory Hornady round nose "solids" out of the berm at the local range. They were about 4 feet into it. I did my best to repair the berm, but the club newsletter reported that a "large burrowing animal had damaged the 100 yd berm on the big range".........
Good luck whatever you decide. Let us know. Tom
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Fotis
Well-Known Member
I know for sure i want a mark v in either .378,.416, or 460 wby mag.Part of me is that if im going big go all the way .460 kinda rolls off the tongue.
True but it can not hold a candle to the 378or 416 when it comes to long range. I have killed antelope and elk at long range with my 416 and 378 Bees.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
I have also machined some of the 500gr banded solids and the triple shock Barnes a
after placeing a secant ojive and a boat tail on the solids they weighed 425 grains, The
Barnes triple shocks ended up at 450grs. I was experimenting with a 45/120 sharps
for long range and they out shot all other available bullets.
Also I did the same thing to some 400 grain 416 bullets and they were phenomenal
and shot the best group in my life (.034 center to center @ 100 yards).
So if you know anyone that is a good machinist you could make some bullets that had
some good BCs. (The 500 triple shock has a BC of .526) and if you boat tailed them it
should get a little better.)
Most people find it hard to even get a 1000 yard shot on Elk so being practical I would
think it would work very well on Elk and as for the tissue damage there is normally
much less with big bullets .
And by the way the Hornady leverevolution bullets don't hold up at such high velocities
because the are designed for 2500ft/sec and down (Impact velocities are normally below
2000 ft/sec)
PS: the accubrake is a baffled/chambered type brake and is reported to reduce recoil
by 54%. I don't know how accurate those % are but I do know they really work because
I removed one from an accumark in 30/378 and fired it and there was a tremendous
difference in recoil.
If you want one buy one.
Just my 2 cents
J E CUSTOM
yeah with out a breal the 30-378 has 50- somthing ft lbs of recoil.Thanks i didnt know about the lever evolution's.
couple good structured .458 bullets perhaps ?
Display Products
Display Products
know i dont think the 525's will fit in the magazine or not but the 300 grains dont look bad eh?
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Those 528grain match bullets should work, as a matter of fact I'm going to try some myself.
Thanks
J E CUSTOM
look what i just found
Barnes Tipped Triple-Shock X Bullets 458 SOCOM (458 Diameter) 300 Grain Spitzer Boat Tail Lead-Free Box of 50 - MidwayUSA
think these hold up @ higher velocity than the lever evolutions ?
or
http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...ing=9315***652***19785***9016***&brandId=2166
also is that a new bullet for 2010?
Barnes Tipped Triple-Shock X Bullets 458 SOCOM (458 Diameter) 300 Grain Spitzer Boat Tail Lead-Free Box of 50 - MidwayUSA
think these hold up @ higher velocity than the lever evolutions ?
or
http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...ing=9315***652***19785***9016***&brandId=2166
also is that a new bullet for 2010?
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specweldtom
Well-Known Member
They are solid copper with a cavity, and should easily handle 3100 fps and the .460 twist (1 in 16"). Looks like a very good candidate. If I can get the G1 B/C., I'll run the exterior ballistics on it.
It must be brand new. I didn't see them listed even a week ago.
I've been emailing back and forth with Dave at Lehigh Bullets. The 528 gr bullet is intended for the .460 Steyr ( a necked down and shortened 50 BMG case), and is too long to stabilize in the Wby 16 twist at .460 velocities. I appreciate the time he took answering my emails, but it looks like a dead end. Other companies make 300 and 350 gr spitzer flat base bullets, so no advantage in his 300gr that I can see.
I'll order some of the tipped T-shok 300's and try them as soon as I can. They should be good for as light as they are. I wish they made a 400 or 500 grainer.
Keep digging.
Thanks, Tom
It must be brand new. I didn't see them listed even a week ago.
I've been emailing back and forth with Dave at Lehigh Bullets. The 528 gr bullet is intended for the .460 Steyr ( a necked down and shortened 50 BMG case), and is too long to stabilize in the Wby 16 twist at .460 velocities. I appreciate the time he took answering my emails, but it looks like a dead end. Other companies make 300 and 350 gr spitzer flat base bullets, so no advantage in his 300gr that I can see.
I'll order some of the tipped T-shok 300's and try them as soon as I can. They should be good for as light as they are. I wish they made a 400 or 500 grainer.
Keep digging.
Thanks, Tom
specweldtom
Well-Known Member
Just talked to a Tech at Barnes. He recommended the T-shok flat base that has a .234 B/C. It has a secant ogive and is a little longer than the 300 tipped Socom bullet, with more body length in contact with the rifling. Also, it is designed for higher velocities than the tipped bullet. The tipped bullet has a B/C of .236, essentially identical to the flat base bullet. Probably both are worth trying out.
I'll run the exterior ballistics sometime today or tonight.
Tom
I'll run the exterior ballistics sometime today or tonight.
Tom
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
The best long range caliber off the 460 case may be the standard 378 wby. I have been playing a little with my 378 wby using the 350 grain SMK's with a BC in the mid .7's. I have a load that pushes them in the 2900 fps range. It is very accurate and the downrange power is amazing. The only thing I have that can stay with it at long range is a 338-378 wby with the 300 SMK.
Everyone is always looking for the best all around elk rifle and the 460 wby could be made a good argument. As a timber elk rifle you just point and shoot. Don't worry about the saplings between you and the elk. It kills your elk and takes down a half cord of firewood for the campfire at the same time. Good all around elk rifle.
I do not think it is overkill for elk as many as I have seen lost and chased all over the mountains with wimpy 7mm rem mags. With that Barnes bullet you found I think it would actually be a better choice than many I see discussed on here.
Everyone is always looking for the best all around elk rifle and the 460 wby could be made a good argument. As a timber elk rifle you just point and shoot. Don't worry about the saplings between you and the elk. It kills your elk and takes down a half cord of firewood for the campfire at the same time. Good all around elk rifle.
I do not think it is overkill for elk as many as I have seen lost and chased all over the mountains with wimpy 7mm rem mags. With that Barnes bullet you found I think it would actually be a better choice than many I see discussed on here.
