.408 Status???

[Darryl Cassel]

Catshooter

Just to add some information on this 408 & 50 cal subject.

1. The 408 Is legal in any heavy gun 1000 yard benchrest competitions in the USA that I am aware of. Rules state that a bullet no larger then 40 Cal can be used. There is NO mention of diameter in the rules. A 408 ceases to be a 40 caliber when it reaches 41 cal or .410 Diameter. No different then calling a 308 diameter a 30 caliber

2. We use to have the 50 cal 1000 yard matches at our range in Williamsport until the target frames were torn to pieces and we found bullets in like new condition in empty fields and neighbors yards 1500 yards downrange from the targets. We stopped 50 cal competitions when this happened.

True the record for a 50 was 3.5" then went to 3" but, that is only 5 shot groups.
I have seen the first 5 shots on many targets come back to the target room at Williamsport that measured 1 1/2" the first 5 rounds of a 10 shot string. This can be checked because the targets are all plotted on every shot. These were shot with 30 cals.
As a matter of fact, one of our shooters had a 10 shot group that measured 3" this past match and the first 9 shots were measured at 2" again with a 30 caliber.

At some of the 50 cal matches the guys would try to get good groups with 10 shots and failed measerably and it was credited to the high volumn of powder and of course a rapid heat buildup. The best they could do with good bullets was 15" (plus) groups when they tried 10 shots. Even the "average" 5 shot groups were 11 and 12" and bigger.

I would like to think that the 408 is not hype or BS as I would like to try one and experiment with it. If it didn't pan out, I could always neck the 408 brass down, rebarrel to the 338 diameter and shoot nothing but the 300 Gr MK in it. It would then be just the cost of another new barrel.

I agree that a 2500 yard 1 shot kill without a spotter round or two fired first, would be
an ultimate shot to say the least. It may be able to be done in time but, I question if that time is here NOW with ANY round?
I don't think so but, who knows for sure?

Anyway, if I get the action I want, I will have a 408 to play with before next year rolls around. I sometimes like to experiment with new things.

Good shooting to you and since you don't live too far away and if you want to compete in 1000 yard matches (not with a 50) , come to Williamsport and give it a try. Maybe you already have?

Darryl Cassel
PR and Information Officer
The Original Pennsylvania 1000 Yard Benchrest Club

 

[texas]

Steve I'll trade you some brass for some of those forbidden duty free smokes

. If MR C from that other country wont smoke them I will be willing to support my northern brothers

.

 

[Nighthawk]

Catshooter

The .50 has been around for 80 years, the .408 is brand new. Or course anything that has been around for a longer period of time there will be more of. This happens with everything outside of LR rifles. I bet after the .408 has been around for a while you will see them. Meanwhile I'm going to get one anyway. I'm sick of arguing about it so I won't post here again.

 

[Warren Jensen]

For the record:

The .408 CheyTac bullets come in two different alloys, neither one of which are brass or bronze. The standard digital handmike used by our machinists measures to .00005, or one/50 millionth of an inch. We adjust our machines to run at that level of accuracy and they do just that. This is neither exceptional nor novel with modern machine tools.

The .408 CheyTac has been marketed for less than 1 year. It was shot for the first time in it's current form in April of 2001.

The price of loaded .408 CheyTac ammunition is $79.95 per box of 20. That is more or less the same price as loaded .338 Lapua ammunition depending on where and from whom you purchase it.

 

[DANTEC]

OK thank for this imput but need more informations

price of empty brass by quantity 20 , 50 ,100 ?

price of bullet alone ready to load by quantity 50

reamer drawing available ? which maker have make the reamer , I use PPG or Manson reamer.

Which maker make reloading die and how much is the cost of a set of dies .

load data for your bullets .

always interesting to make trials in Europe but always received any news from you ?

Does PAC NOR get your barrel specs ?

Good shooting

DAN TEC

 

[CatShooter]

Warren...

When you write 1/50 millionth, it doesn't translate to 0.0005.

CatShooter.

[ 08-28-2002: Message edited by: CatShooter ]

 

[308 Hawg]

Catshooter: That was silly. Anybody that has worked with their hands in a shop knows that Warren meant 50 millionths of an inch or "half a tenth". Play fair. Opinions are opinions, we all have them.

 

[DANTEC]

I made my own bullets on CNC lathe because cost of shipping from USA is hight and Custom papers are worth ( need a licence just to make a shipping for a trial on 10 bullets !!!! ) so I make my own .

I use as tolerance ( for long range bullets ) on drive band diameter +/- 0.005 mm so a total tolerance of 0.01 mm that make a tolerance of 0.000393 inch ( if I am OK with conversion ).

I check my bullet diameter with a MAHR micrometer 0 to 25 mm with a precision of 0.001 mm and check the MAHR micrometer with a gage block grade 1 and the roudness of the bullet with a MAHR gauge ( capacitive gauge ) on a V block MAHR give reading in the 0.0005 mm .

this range of tolerance is quite easy to get on semi mass product parts and on bronze parts ( because bronze have more dilatation that steel I need to keep the bullets in controled temperature room before to check the diameter ( just a too long time contact with my hands warm the bullet and diameter reading increase ).

I agree with Catshooter that the tolerance give on the 408 website is a tolerance of laboratory and at this level even your breath make the reading change .

for my bullet I use bronze alloy without nickel , just regular bronze bearing , what is the improvement of nickel alloy use in LRB bullets . because if you use to hard or too tought alloy you smash the barrel grooves and nickel alloy fouling is worth to remove .
that just a question because share informations in the first way to progress

enjoy engineering

DANTEC

 

[JackRabbitSquare]

As far as i can tell the only real thing the 408 has going for it is long range competition. I would doubt the military would pick up such a new round with limited production, availability, extreme cost, and limited applications.

I personally like the idea of the 408, it uses less powder for long range as compared to the 50bmg, it has more precise brass and bullets. For long-range competition i think the round would do well. I just don't think it has a wide spread military application.

I personally would like to get a 408 as well as a 50BMG, but like the military I am a little leery about getting into an expensive rifle whose bullets come from a single manufacturer.

 

[JackRabbitSquare]

Sorry DANTEC you posted right before me, I was not commenting on your post. I imagine that the 408 would perform fine and I am not a machinist so I cannot comment on the bullet precision thing

I am just looking at it under the cost idea; the military already have the 50bmg in mass production. Wouldn't it be simpler to produce some "select grade" 50bmg with some good solid bullet to utilize existing parts?

Does the 408 outperform a 50 with comparable bullets? If not why would the military change over?

 

[Mysticplayer]

As some may have read from my previous post, the 50BMG in the hands of some talented Cdn sniper has made a new world record for longest hit. This was over 2400meters (over 2600yds). Took two shots and that was that.

Guarantee you that his ammo was not machine gun fodder. Hopefully, we will get more info as this story gets declassified.

So the long range use of the 50BMG is still solid. However, it will be in specialized rifles shooting ammo to suit. This would not be much different then the 408 or any other design.

However, logistics do dictate that unless there is a wide scale change away from the 50 BMG, any other stand alone cartridge is going to have a very tough fight to be accepted. At the end of the day, when the team is *** deep in a fire fight in the middle of nowhere, having a ready supply of any suitable ammo is very comforting. At least in my opinion.

A 2500yd system is wonderful, but what happens when the fight gets 500yds away and you are out of ammo and nothing else fits?

With globalization affecting the armies of the "western" world, not only would any new cartridge have to be accepted by the US, it would also have to work for other NATO and affiliated countries.

Don't think there are that many armies looking to reinvent the wheel. How much is the 338 lapua used in real combat today, by how many countries? Compare that to the 308, 300win mag.

I belive that any new long range sniper/machine gun cartridge would have to revolutionize the performance of what we have today. Sort of like the change from black powder to smokeless. We just have too much invested in known tech that still works to look at reinventing the wheel.

I am guessing smart 'munitions are going to get further R&D money. Wouldn't a fire and forget bullet be kind of neat?

Just a thought...

Jerry

 

[Warren Jensen]

5/100,000 is the same thing as 50/1,000,000.

I said .00005 or one/50 millionth. I did not invent that terminology. It was first used by Mitutoyo in describing their instruments. Whether you want to agree with that is up to you, but the .00005 is accurate.

 

[Warren Jensen]

Please note the tactics of Catshooter, AKA Paul Coburn. He makes a number of erroneous charges. When they are proven to be invalid he finds part of one of the pieces of information that is confusing to attack. By attacking this one piece of information he then expands that the author is shameless and worthless and all his resulting work is of no value.

He has completely ignored the fact that he was blatantly wrong about the bullet's composition. He was blatantly wrong about the expense of the ammunition.

Mr Coburn is not a professional nor is he a gentleman. He is not interested in a discussion. He seems only to be interested in personal attacks and making himself look good at the expense of someone else. Those of you who read a number of forums recognize the tactics and recognize that Mr. Coburn uses these tactics many times over.

Mr. Coburn comments are, more than anything else, a waste of my time and a clear reason why these forums eventually become tiresome.

If I am off-base, let me know, in a private E-mail.

 

[DANTEC]

dear Jackrabbit

no problem with your answer .

I wait from a proposal from LRB to be able to test and make trials on 408 Cheyenne .

As I say in my posts I am as Saint THOMAS I trust in what I see so just need some help and share from LRB to organise a trial in Europe .

I can get a barrel from BORDER BARREL and one from PAC NOR .

Die can be ''home made'' even neck sizer with bushing .

I need cases ( made in Germany so no problem for import export ) , bullets or bullets drawing if Custom licence make problem and reamer drawing to order one with some loading tables I think I can shoot soon at ultra long range ( 1000 meters / 2000 meters and 3200 meters if needed ) .

Good shooting and enjoy wilcats .

DAN TEC