. 35 Whelan A.I. data with 250 gr. and 2700, Vit. 140

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by wildcat westerner, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. wildcat westerner

    wildcat westerner Well-Known Member

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    Hello,
    I have acquired a .35 Whelan A.I. along with bullets and a 3 die set for reloading. I have .250 grain bullets for it, and a large amount of Accurate 2700 and Vit 140. Seems to me these powders should be the correct burning rate for the 22 inch barrel of this rifle. I tried to use my Quikload and find it only has 225 grain bullets as a maximum weight. Since I have both round nose and spitzer bullets in this weight, I want to use both them and these powders for this rifle. I would appreciate some experienced help so that I do not ruin this old rifle that has been in the family since 1956, although unfortunately no loading data was ever saved for its usage.
    Thank you in advance.

    G.S.
     
  2. Edd

    Edd Well-Known Member

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    I can't help you with any load data but I am currently planning a 35 Whelen build. I have the parts and am waiting on a reamer. In the process of planning this build I have done a lot of research and I think those powders should work well.

    If you should want some heavy copper bullets, Hammer Bullets has a real nice 254 and 259 gr that isn't listed on their website, you will have to beg for them. I intend to try the 259 gr version.
     
  3. Lefty7mmstw

    Lefty7mmstw Well-Known Member

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  4. wildcat westerner

    wildcat westerner Well-Known Member

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    Hello Ed,

    I always liked the A.I. Version due to its shoulder. Since I have all the components listed in this request, I note V140 isa twin of RE 15 which produces the highest velocities inthis case. With the components available now, I wouldlook closely at the Nosler Accubonds 225 gr. Bullet. With a direct comparison to the 30-06 180 grain bullet and the .35 Whelan 250 spritzer, if both cases are sighted in at 200 yards, the trajectory of the 35 is only three inches lower then the '06. How many hunters atthat distance cantake anadvan
     
  5. wildcat westerner

    wildcat westerner Well-Known Member

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    My I pad keyboard screwed up!
    The point being the trajectory of a 180 grain .30 and a 250 grain .35 arereallyclose from 200 to 300 yards.Your interest in this cartridge probably comes from your physics classes, plus your ballistics interest; since velocity drops from the muzzle , but bullet weight always remains the same over its flight.
     
  6. codyadams

    codyadams Well-Known Member

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    My father is currently using Varget with a 225 grain sierra, not the same I know, but he is getting an easy 2850 with no pressure signs, and hasn't worked his load up to max yet. I would simply look at data for a 225 grain bullet with your powder and drop the charge about 10-15% and work up. If a max with the 225 is 62, just drop to 54-55ish grains and work up with 1 shot each in 1 grain increments and chrono till you find pressure. You will find your max in way less than 10 shots, and likely find a velocy range you want to be in. Should be easy.
     
  7. wildcat westerner

    wildcat westerner Well-Known Member

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    Cody,
    Thanks for the straightforward info. 2,850 fps surprises me. I have a lot of Vit 140 which is right next to Varget on the burning rate chart and a large amount of 250 grain bullets. my chronograph is simply not functioning now, so, I have started a ladder load to see how that combination works out. The brass is Frankford Arsenal national match '59, and will be annealed after I determine the best load with available components.
     
  8. codyadams

    codyadams Well-Known Member

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    Just to clarify, the 2850 is with the 225, not 250. Not sure what he would get with a 250
     
  9. sable tireur

    sable tireur Well-Known Member

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    With respect,

    There are a couple of things to remember regarding the Ackley Improved style cartridges:

    1 - You can use a fairly stout (upper end load) from the parent cartridge to fireform because the case gets bigger during this process, allowing the pressure to fall lower.

    2 - Ackley Improved cartridges do NOT show signs of pressure like normal cartridges until the pressure is too high and there is a failure. This is why many folks report much higher velocities from AI testing than when the pressure is monitored through a pressure sensor.

    I believe this is where we're seeing numbers like the 2,850 fps with a 225 gr. bullet. The difference between 225 and 250 is not enough to see a 250 FPS change from book figures.

    Rational pressures should yield somewhere around 2,600 and 2,650 FPS depending on the powder type and charge weight.

    I just finished building 3 of these and the testing with 250 grain Partitions was right around 2,650 FPS.

    Regards.
     
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  10. wildcat westerner

    wildcat westerner Well-Known Member

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    Hello Sable tireur. I have owned several wildcats over the years and everything you wrote rings true to me. Your insights into the velocity previously stated would seem to be within the realm of reason.
    The statement about high pressures in AI cartrridges not being as reliable indicators that most use is brutally correct.
    Years ago, before I owned a chronograph etc. I used the flattened primer and bolt lift resistance as the indicators as to when to quit. I had built a .257AI with a massive steel sleeve around a Remington tuned action. Using RWS brass I decided to let my old methods tell me when enough was enough as to loading hot. Using target bullets I started with a load of 4350 that was suggested and I had my reloading tools with me and started adding a grain of powder. As the powder increased I noted the groups got smaller so it was easy to keep on adding to the load. The primers got flatter, but never did the bolt get any harder to lift after firing. I finally stopped when the groups started to spread a little bit. This was a heavy rifle meant for long range accuracy at that time. I drove home and looked in a reloading manual and found out I was shooting loads 6-7 grains over the maximum listed! Never again!
     
  11. codyadams

    codyadams Well-Known Member

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    I will add as well,

    That 2850 is being achieved with only 2% charge wieght increase over what is listed for a standard 35 whelen. 25.5" douglas barrel.

    And also, if in fact a specific cartridge design allows one to load higher pressure without the regular negative effects of high pressure, such as short brass life, erradic pressure spikes, ect., then why is that a bad thing? I have a .260 AI that I am loading 147 eld-m's at 3050 fps, and I have used this load, or a load of 140 vld's at 3070, for 12+ firings in that brass, ranging from freezing to 90° temperatures, with half MOA or less accuracy the entire time. So I do not see the problem with not getting the pressure issues in ackley brass until a much higher pressure. And actually....wasn't reduced bolt thrust part of the point that the creator of the ackley design was intending to achieve?.....

    As far as saftey, I am not nor have I ever blown primers in my ackley, so yes I may be over pressure, but it is not anywhere near the yield strength of the remington 700. I have heard this argument many times before, and I can see the concern, but being able to run higher pressure without the usual negative effect of said pressure it is part of the reason for using an ackley design.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
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  12. sable tireur

    sable tireur Well-Known Member

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    codyadams,

    I addressed my post as 'With respect' for a reason, I am not trying to point or wag my finger at anyone or specifically condemn anyone's comments. I wanted to make some statements with regard to the statements you made.

    Now, if you choose to take offense, that wasn't my intention. You're free to make your decisions for your reloading just like any of the rest of us. I wouldn't suggest otherwise. I am offering another viewpoint which is different from yours, that's all. My experiences with dozens of cartridges (mostly wildcats and Ackley's) and building hundreds of rifles for clients, dictates a different path for me to follow as I am held to a different standard than an individual is, performing the reloading for their personal use. Limits and limitations dictate my path. So does the cost of my insurance...:eek:

    We simply agree to disagree.;):)
     
  13. wildcat westerner

    wildcat westerner Well-Known Member

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    Both the forgoing statements are valid within their parameters. I find the results of the 6.5 Creedmoor to be pretty outstanding. I have a newer 6.5 Sherman and was able to attain 3,300 fps with the same Hornady 143 grain bullet, but it takes 57 grains of RE23 and a 26 inch barrel to do it!
    Some bolt rifles are junk and even midrange loads can be dangerous.
    In the cases of tuned actions,RWS brass, and measuring the case base when fired when using a 1/10,000 mike you can push things safely to the max. I've done this and when target shooting this method worked for me when setting two worlds records. BUT, since we are hunting with the rifle in question there is no mammal in North America who would notice the difference, upon receipt, of 100 fps, above 3,000fps.
    I have run across hunters in the field with stuck cases in chambers, or they extracted the base of the case when it separated. This is "over the edge" mentality when reloading for hunting. I get the idea that some people on this site spend more time in front of their computers than they do hunting or developing their tracking skills.
     
  14. codyadams

    codyadams Well-Known Member

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    I apologize if my post came across as argumentative, that was not my intention in any way, shape or form, but more so to spark discussion. I have read many of your other posts and can see why you would think I am arguing, you have a large amount of experience and strong opinions formed from said experiences, and with knowledge, experience and opinions comes people that want to argue. I apologize if that was what came across, it was not my intention. I enjoy discussion about things like this, and that was my intention.

    I also get that loading for clients is FAR different then loading for yourself. I load for many of my friends, and in others guns I am much more conservative, if something goes wrong it's not my face on the line, it's theirs.

    And in essence, I agree with you. Ackley cartridges do not show pressure signs like standard cartridges, absolutely. But if one is loading for their own rifle, not in a business manner, in a strong, modern rifle, if you can load to higher pressure without destroying brass, and the action is more than capable of hadling the extra pressure, what is it that keeps one from being able to safely load to higher pressures? I'm interested in yours, and others responses, not trying to start an argument!! :)