338 twist rate, what are your thoughts?

long ranger,

How are you finding the US 869 is handling the temp swings? I'm looking for a 338 LM powder for the new 265gr Wildcat, hopefully Richard will have his new 265gr version ready soon.

+20`C to -20`C, we drink beer otherwise :D

Cheers,
Rob
 
long ranger,

How are you finding the US 869 is handling the temp swings? I'm looking for a 338 LM powder for the new 265gr Wildcat, hopefully Richard will have his new 265gr version ready soon.

+20`C to -20`C, we drink beer otherwise :D

Cheers,
Rob

I did all my load development last Feb and March in -15 to plus 50F then in Africa it was plus 100F, I have not had any issues other than that POI changed due to elevation, humidity and temperature changes, which was to be expected.
I fully intend to use 869 for all my matches this year regardless of weather.
It may not be classed as an extreme powder, but I have not had any negative situations using it in anything 338 and above.
 
What are my chances stablizing a 300gr SMK in a 1:10 twist 30" Shilen barrel. I plan on loading fairly hot. Thanks for the great info guys.

In my experience a 1 in 10 is borderline, you may find it works well, but chances are the same you may find stabilization issues at distance.
250 grainers will not be an issue, but with 300s you are right on the edge of total stabilization.
From the rifles I have built using a 10 twist only by shooting it will you know for sure, this is why I use either 1 in 9.4 or 9.5 for all my big 338s where I Know the 300s are the bullet of chouce.
 
Thanks Rick, just so happens there is lots of US 869 here for my 50. I'll try that first and resort to H1000 or Retumbo if I have to.

Cheers
 
Fozzy,

I have built rifles in the 338 Lapua, 338 Kahn and my 338 AX and only use 1-10 twist barrels. In those rifles I have shot the 265 gr ULD RBBT and 350 gr ULD RBBT and in every case, I got excellent accuracy out to 1000 yards and beyond. With the 350 gr ULD RBBT, I was only getting around 2650 fps in the Lapua and around 2800 in the Kahn and AX.

I tell you this for one reason, the 265 gr AT RBBT and 350 gr ULD RBBT are DRAMATICALLY longer then the 300 gr SMK. If a 1-10 twist will produce excellent accuracy at 1000 yards and beyond with this extremely long bullet, the 300 gr SMK will most definately be completely stabilized in a 1-10 twist when fired to the 2800 to 2900 fps that the Edge can produce depending on barrel length.

The comments that were made about "Those Claiming" good results with a 1-10 are humerous. Sierra made the bullet, they have tested this bullet on more chamberings then anyone out there and from velocities that are VERY low to very high. They recommend a 1-10. I would listen to the experts concerning bullets and namely those that actually made and tested the bullets.

I have also found that in my 338 Allen Xpress, Retumbo was a far more consistant powder for bullets from 265 gr up to the 300 gr SMK. I tested H-1000, Rl-25, Retumbo, H-50BMG and US869.

For 250 gr bullets, H-1000 was about as good as you can get. For the 300 gr bullets, H-1000 worked very well but Retumbo offered higher velocity levels with less pressure signs which I expected would be the case as its a better choice. H-1000 is THE powder of choice for the 338 EDGE, ask Shawn Carlock, its designer. Retumbo also works well and in some rifles will get you a bit more velocity with similiar consistancy.

In my opinion, from my actual testing, US869 is not even in the top three powders for my 338 Allen Xpress which is an improved version of the 338 Lapua. ITs to slow in burn rate. It will certainly keep you out of any pressure problems as you simply can not get the pressure up to where it should be for a good clean burn with this powder which resulted in excessive carbon fouling compared to Retumbo.

Also, top velocity was not that impressive. I got around 2875 fps with US869 with the 300 gr SMK. Retumbo got me just shy of 2950 fps in a 27" barrel. 30" will get you just shy of 3000 fps in many cases with Retumbo.

Both loads were very accurate with decent extreme spreads for US869 but much tighter for Retumbo.

Also when tested in cold temps(20 degrees) compared to moderate temps(75 degrees), velocity spreads were much wider for US869 compared to retumbo. In fact average velocity with 869 increased an average of 78 fps with this temp change compared to 14 fps for Retumbo.

US869 is advertised as being very stable over wide temp ranges. It may be in the 50 BMG but it certainly is not in smaller bore sizes, at least in nothing I have tested it in.

It is much more appropriate in my 300 AX which is also on an improved version of the Lapua case but that is because the expansion ratio is much lower then with the 338 version.

Why do I bring all this up. My 338 AX has a decent case capacity advantage over the 338 Edge. If US869 is to slow for the AX it will be even worse in the Edge.

Again, no need to reinvent the wheel, use H-1000 or Retumbo in the Edge and go with a top quality 1-10 twist barrel. You will never have any problems at all. No need to change things just for the sake of saying you changed them. Use what has been proven to work hundreds of thousands of times before.

Just my opinion.

You will certainly not get into any serious problems with a faster twist. The Edge can not get into the velocity ranges that would result from accuracy issues from over spinning the 300 gr SMK. Hell I drive them to over 3400 fps in my 338 AM with amazing accuracy and in that case, 1-10 is much more then needed but it still works extremely well.

Kirby Allen(50)
 
Your experiences certianly have me feeling better about the 1:10 barrel I ordered. If I couldn't stablize the 300 SMK I would be more than dissapointed. I would have to order another barrel. Thanks again.
 
Thanks for all the replies and information.

I'm a long way from ever pulling the trigger on this one, probably better part of a year away. The A5 stock is on order as well as the barrel. I ordered a 9.5 twist from Rock Creek which will take some time as well. Hopefully it's not too fast.
I'm looking forward to it all coming together one day. Almost like a new family member :)
 
I am not saying the faster twists will not work well, they are just not needed with a magnum chambering in 338 caliber for the 300 gr SMK bullets. None of the mentioned chamberings will come anywhere near close to the velocity level needed to cause accuracy problems from to much RPMs.

The SMK has a relatively heavy jacket, as such, it can take some serious strains, again, mentioning those bullets in my 338 AM at 3400 fps. I have even pushed them to 3500 fps in my heavy rifle during load development and accuracy was and always has been 1/2 minute or better if I do my job in good conditions.

If you have a 1-9, 1-9.3, 1-9.5, 1-9.7 or 1-10 on order, there is no reason to change your order, all will work great but I would love to see someone prove that one would be any better then the others.

The key is a quality barrel that has a twist rate true to the advertisement by the maker. Button pulled barrels tend to run a bit slower in rate then a cut rifled barrel but I have also heard that many button rifles barrel makers know this and order their tooling slightly faster then advertised so the end product is what is ordered.

Cut rifled barrels tend to be truer to advertised spec.

Simply put, a 1-10 will stabilize a 300 gr SMK in every condition I have tested them in at any velocity from 2700 fps up to 3500 fps with 1/2 moa accuracy and at ranges out to 2500 yards.

Kirby Allen(50)
 
I will be brutally honest, if your looking to shoot a mile, I would spend your best money on the best barrel you can. Shilen has been making barrels for a long time but I would not classify them in the top rung of barrel makers.

I would look at Lilja, Rock, Broughton, Kreiger, Hart and so on. There are many others, these are just the ones I use the most and recommend because I know for a fact that the barrels will be shooters if I do my job as a rifle builder.

I am not saying a Shilen select match will not shoot extremly well, they generally do shoot well but consider what your trying to do here. 1 mile shooting is a game for only the finest of equipment if you want consistant results.

And to your expectations, 1/2 moa at a mile. Again, consider what your saying. 1/2 moa at 1000 yards is a hell of a feat. The best shooters in the world in good shooting conditions will have a hard time meeting this level of accuracy. If you could print 1/2 moa for every shot you would win most 1000 yard BR comps easily.

In generaly shooting conditions, anything under moa at 1000 yards is very good. Anything under 3/4 moa is exceptional. Anything even around 1/2 moa is something to really talk about.

Now step things out to a mile, thats 1760 yards, 75% father then 1000 yards. I tell my customers getting into long range that 800 yards is a hell of a long way to shoot. 1000 yards is noticably harder to get consistant groups at then 800 yards.

1200 yards is again noticably more difficult to shoot tight groups at.

1500 yards, I tell my customers is roughly twice as difficult to shoot quality groups than 1000 yards.

At a mile, if your holding under MOA, your doing **** good no matter how you are, what your shooting or the conditions your shooting in. In some conditions getting 2 moa groups would be a very good day.

I think you need to allow for a bit more latitude with your expectations or you may well be very unhappy and frustrated with the results in the end. I am not saying its impossible to shoot 1/2 moa at a mile but for the most part, that is something you will see only in the movies and in the BS ring around the camp fire....

JMO.

Kirby Allen(50)
 
I was unaware that Shilen was a second-rate barrel maker, I have one of their barrels on my 308 and can hold 1/4 MOA beyond 500yds. I've never shot beyond 1000yds and if I could hold MOA at 1760 I'd be very satisfied, but like I said, I'm "hopping" for 1/2 MOA (good conditions). I understand how much harder it is to be accurate as you extend the range. If the rifle will not hold MOA at 1 mile I will try replacing the barrel. At 1000yds I'm hoping for better than 1/2 MOA, but there's only one way to find out. I appreciate at all your experience at these ranges, that's why I joined you guys here, the other fourm I've been a part of for a while doesn't have so many guys with 1500Yd+ experience. I'm sure I'll have more questions once I get the rifle put together and try to reach my lofty (probaby rediculous) goals. This project reminds me of when I first mentioned my goal of shooting eggs at 500yds (other forum) now 5 eggs in a row is nothing special. It was a learning curve then and I plan to start the curve all over again (I'll atleast give it a shot). Thanks again, (I know I've been getting more from this forum than I'm giving) you guys are a great help and inspiration.
 
Last edited:

Recent Posts

Top