wanting to rebarrell sako trg-s action with 28-30" heavy contour barrell in either 338 Lapua Improved or 8.59 Titan. anyone know the case dimensions on the 338 Lapua IMP? all input appreciated. i would like to shoot the 300 SMK,and i would like to know velocity from 338 Lapua Imp.
338 Titan vs 338 Lapua Imp.
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Steve Shelp
Well-Known Member
Mark300,
I've got a 338 Lapua Improved. It's a 35 degree shoulder that has been moved forward approx .050" done by David Tooley. Not a max'd out design but a 7% increase over a standard Lapua case. It holds 120.5gr of H2O as compared to the 113.5gr of H2O that I measured in a standard Lapua case. I've never stood on my loads to see what velocity it will give. I know I could go over 3000fps easily in a 32" barrel. Probably 3050+ if I used the slow charcol burner powders. But I've always gone for accuracy with mine so I don't know the extreme limit in velocity. Another rifle chambered with the same reamer in a 45" barrel produced 3165fps easily with R25 powder.
I jsut had my 32" cut off and set back to get a new throat for this match season. Haven't shot it yet at 30". Will have to let you know if it makes a difference if any at all.
I don't have any hands on with the Titan case to know if there more or less case capacity in it compared to the Lapua Improved. Do you have a case to measure the H2O capacity. I do it with a primer cup seated upside down and fill it to the top of the case mouth perfectly level for comparison sake. Not a perfect method but quick and easiy enough to get and idea of what your dealing with.
Hope this helps,
Steve
I've got a 338 Lapua Improved. It's a 35 degree shoulder that has been moved forward approx .050" done by David Tooley. Not a max'd out design but a 7% increase over a standard Lapua case. It holds 120.5gr of H2O as compared to the 113.5gr of H2O that I measured in a standard Lapua case. I've never stood on my loads to see what velocity it will give. I know I could go over 3000fps easily in a 32" barrel. Probably 3050+ if I used the slow charcol burner powders. But I've always gone for accuracy with mine so I don't know the extreme limit in velocity. Another rifle chambered with the same reamer in a 45" barrel produced 3165fps easily with R25 powder.
I jsut had my 32" cut off and set back to get a new throat for this match season. Haven't shot it yet at 30". Will have to let you know if it makes a difference if any at all.
I don't have any hands on with the Titan case to know if there more or less case capacity in it compared to the Lapua Improved. Do you have a case to measure the H2O capacity. I do it with a primer cup seated upside down and fill it to the top of the case mouth perfectly level for comparison sake. Not a perfect method but quick and easiy enough to get and idea of what your dealing with.
Hope this helps,
Steve
Steve Shelp
Well-Known Member
sr90,
A picure is worth a 1000 words, so here's a picture of my "Big Woody"
as I like to call him now. I used the big BAT 2"x10" action and as you can see it's not blocked. I wanted a switch barrel setup, so I kept my barrel length shorter so a block wasn't needed (or that was/is the plan). I'm going for accuracy and not speed so I didn't need the long barrel to shoot the 2900+- fps that these 300gr bullets seem to thrive in for all out accuracy. I ordered the action with 2 bolts (1) .470" for '06 type cases and (1) .580" bolt face for the Lapua case. So I can change barrels and bolts in 5-7 minutes with this setup. My second barrel is being done as we speak in a 6.5x55AI chamber that I already shoot in the Ligh Gun class rifle. So I won't have to develope load data all over again.
Those BAT actions are smooth as silk also! Notice this action has the bolt handle on the "right" side of the action
!!
Steve
[ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: Steve Shelp ]
A picure is worth a 1000 words, so here's a picture of my "Big Woody"
Those BAT actions are smooth as silk also! Notice this action has the bolt handle on the "right" side of the action
Steve
[ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: Steve Shelp ]
Steve-
I see that you have your front pedestal mounted to an aluminum plate. I am going to shoot 1,000 yards this summer for he first time and was wondering if that is something I should make. What advantage does it have over just using the pedestal right on the bench? Also, what type of pedestal do you think would be good for my 16 pound rifle?
Thanks
I see that you have your front pedestal mounted to an aluminum plate. I am going to shoot 1,000 yards this summer for he first time and was wondering if that is something I should make. What advantage does it have over just using the pedestal right on the bench? Also, what type of pedestal do you think would be good for my 16 pound rifle?
Thanks
Steve Shelp
Well-Known Member
I'll try to answer everyone's questions here. If I miss something smack me in the head and I'll try again.
sr90,
What is the barrel thickness and taper? That is a Lilja 1 7/8" diameter x 32" untapered 10 twist barrel as pictured. I just got it back from the 'smiths a week or so ago and it's 30" long now after being set back and rechambered after 2.5 seasons.
Are you happy you went with the 338 imp instead of the 338 lapua? Again because I wanted all out accuracy, speed wasn't the issue, and with these longer barrels a std 338 case could give me the velocity range I needed. The reason I chose the improved case was in hopes of using a certain range of powders and also because part of the original neck (which is turned concentric before fire forming) gets blown out into the "new" shoulder. So not only is the neck turned but now a small portion of the shoulder is also. The ridge that is caused where the turner stopped cutting seems to stop any brass flow from reaching the neck area, which causes the "dreaded donut" in some other case designs. After cutting apart a few case after several firings I believe this has worked out. But is a lot more expensive than a std 338 Lapua setup. Custom dies had to be made and all, and good work isn't cheap.
Primetime,
I see that you have your front pedestal mounted to an aluminum plate. I am going to shoot 1,000 yards this summer for he first time and was wondering if that is something I should make? If your going to take the competition at least semi-serious I would recommend it at some point. A couple of reasons:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>gives a larger and more stable platform IF you use a rest stop to stop the forward movement of your rifle after recoil. Sometimes if you push forward with to much force you can cause the rear leg of your front tripod to jump up when it hits the stop. It may come to rest in the some hole on the benchtop or it may not. Thousands of an inch of rest palcement is critical at 1,000yds. I like a large foot print rest and weight to over comes this. Now some shoot without a stop in the LG class and I've done this successfully for the last 2 seasons. If you don't have a rest staop this is much less critical.
<LI>the other advantage is that the rear leg screw that most use for fine tuning thier vertical adjustments while firing can be extended back as far as you want to make your bench technique more comfortable. My wheel is only 3-4" in front of my rear rest, so to make an adjustment my hand hardly moves on the bench and it's right there to make a horizontal adjsutment on the rear rest if neccassary.
<LI>an added bonus is that it slows down the sensitivity of the vertical adjustment screw because of the length of the "lever" now use to raise or lower the rifle.[/list]
Also, what type of pedestal do you think would be good for my 16 pound rifle? For a 16.5# rifle... any of the std BR rests available are good. When dealing with the HG rifles that push 75-100# then you need to keep in mind the size of the support post to stop it from wobbling becasue of all that weight trying to balance on top of a 1/2" diameter post or something similar. Sinclair, Hart, Wichita, etc are all good. I would use the cast iron pedestals though. The Wichita is nice and works but is on the light side being made out of aluminum and has a little smaller foot print. The Bald Eagle slingshot is handy when storing because it's narrower but it's less stable even when using the LG class rifle.
Because the LG class uses sand bag rear rest I also don't see the need to spend money on a windage top either. It's another $100 that doesn't gain you much in this game. I would save that money and buy more bullets and powder to shoot much and learn the wind. Someday if you ever shoot HG class a windage adjustment is VERY handy because of the weight your dealing with. But everyone already has that built into the rear rest anyway so save your money IMO. But if you had to nail me down to one recommendation I would say the Sinclair and only becasue of their rest top design. The pedestal bases is almost indentical. You can buy the whole Sinclair setup with tungstan pins, rest top and bag, with a stop as a whole kit. The original Sinclair model '86 side tension rest top (mad out of steel!! not aluminum) is still hard to beat and isn't anymore or less money than the Bruno, Hart, Bald Eagle tops available. I like the way it clamps the bag over the Bruno setup. But they all work on the same principle. So the differeneces are small and more personal taste than anything. Go to the matches and ask to see, touch, and use others rests until you find one that really suits you and your rifle. That would be my suggestion.
No Fear,
I could tell your stock is McMillan 50cal LBR? Did I win? strike #1!!!
That's a 50HBR stock. The LBR looks very similar but has a 3.5" wide forarm (HBR is 5") and the bottom of the buttstock is radiused to slide in a rabit eared bag. The HBR buttstock bottom is flat and parrallel with the bottom of the forearm and is 2.3"?? wide I think.
Does it balance well with your heavy barrel? It took some messing around at the bench moving the rifle back and forth, changing my stop location, bench placement etc but it finally tracks really well. If you look at the bottom of the forearm and buttstock you see steel plates.... they are 5/8" thick 304 stainless plates bolted to the stock and add another #26 to the rifle. These help also. But to directly answer your question of just the stock (without the plates) with the barrled action and scope all mounted up, it was muzzle heavy.... yes. Not to far out though, but enough to be concerned with and make adjustmants to. This is normal for setting up a HG class rifle though and isn't unusual. This is where a good expereinced LR 'smith can pay big time when your building a rifle. Especially one that shoots himself and knows the game. Any good gunsmith can chamber a rifle, but the good LR 'smiths know the balance points, if a rifle combo your asking about will make weight, bedding BLOCK info
, twist info, etc. This is second nature to them.
That should be it for now. boy my fingers are tired. Keep'um in the X ring... or somewhere close by. Match season starts in less than a month for us down here. Got a lot of work to do.
Steve
sr90,
What is the barrel thickness and taper? That is a Lilja 1 7/8" diameter x 32" untapered 10 twist barrel as pictured. I just got it back from the 'smiths a week or so ago and it's 30" long now after being set back and rechambered after 2.5 seasons.
Are you happy you went with the 338 imp instead of the 338 lapua? Again because I wanted all out accuracy, speed wasn't the issue, and with these longer barrels a std 338 case could give me the velocity range I needed. The reason I chose the improved case was in hopes of using a certain range of powders and also because part of the original neck (which is turned concentric before fire forming) gets blown out into the "new" shoulder. So not only is the neck turned but now a small portion of the shoulder is also. The ridge that is caused where the turner stopped cutting seems to stop any brass flow from reaching the neck area, which causes the "dreaded donut" in some other case designs. After cutting apart a few case after several firings I believe this has worked out. But is a lot more expensive than a std 338 Lapua setup. Custom dies had to be made and all, and good work isn't cheap.
Primetime,
I see that you have your front pedestal mounted to an aluminum plate. I am going to shoot 1,000 yards this summer for he first time and was wondering if that is something I should make? If your going to take the competition at least semi-serious I would recommend it at some point. A couple of reasons:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>gives a larger and more stable platform IF you use a rest stop to stop the forward movement of your rifle after recoil. Sometimes if you push forward with to much force you can cause the rear leg of your front tripod to jump up when it hits the stop. It may come to rest in the some hole on the benchtop or it may not. Thousands of an inch of rest palcement is critical at 1,000yds. I like a large foot print rest and weight to over comes this. Now some shoot without a stop in the LG class and I've done this successfully for the last 2 seasons. If you don't have a rest staop this is much less critical.
<LI>the other advantage is that the rear leg screw that most use for fine tuning thier vertical adjustments while firing can be extended back as far as you want to make your bench technique more comfortable. My wheel is only 3-4" in front of my rear rest, so to make an adjustment my hand hardly moves on the bench and it's right there to make a horizontal adjsutment on the rear rest if neccassary.
<LI>an added bonus is that it slows down the sensitivity of the vertical adjustment screw because of the length of the "lever" now use to raise or lower the rifle.[/list]
Also, what type of pedestal do you think would be good for my 16 pound rifle? For a 16.5# rifle... any of the std BR rests available are good. When dealing with the HG rifles that push 75-100# then you need to keep in mind the size of the support post to stop it from wobbling becasue of all that weight trying to balance on top of a 1/2" diameter post or something similar. Sinclair, Hart, Wichita, etc are all good. I would use the cast iron pedestals though. The Wichita is nice and works but is on the light side being made out of aluminum and has a little smaller foot print. The Bald Eagle slingshot is handy when storing because it's narrower but it's less stable even when using the LG class rifle.
Because the LG class uses sand bag rear rest I also don't see the need to spend money on a windage top either. It's another $100 that doesn't gain you much in this game. I would save that money and buy more bullets and powder to shoot much and learn the wind. Someday if you ever shoot HG class a windage adjustment is VERY handy because of the weight your dealing with. But everyone already has that built into the rear rest anyway so save your money IMO. But if you had to nail me down to one recommendation I would say the Sinclair and only becasue of their rest top design. The pedestal bases is almost indentical. You can buy the whole Sinclair setup with tungstan pins, rest top and bag, with a stop as a whole kit. The original Sinclair model '86 side tension rest top (mad out of steel!! not aluminum) is still hard to beat and isn't anymore or less money than the Bruno, Hart, Bald Eagle tops available. I like the way it clamps the bag over the Bruno setup. But they all work on the same principle. So the differeneces are small and more personal taste than anything. Go to the matches and ask to see, touch, and use others rests until you find one that really suits you and your rifle. That would be my suggestion.
No Fear,
I could tell your stock is McMillan 50cal LBR? Did I win? strike #1!!!
Does it balance well with your heavy barrel? It took some messing around at the bench moving the rifle back and forth, changing my stop location, bench placement etc but it finally tracks really well. If you look at the bottom of the forearm and buttstock you see steel plates.... they are 5/8" thick 304 stainless plates bolted to the stock and add another #26 to the rifle. These help also. But to directly answer your question of just the stock (without the plates) with the barrled action and scope all mounted up, it was muzzle heavy.... yes. Not to far out though, but enough to be concerned with and make adjustmants to. This is normal for setting up a HG class rifle though and isn't unusual. This is where a good expereinced LR 'smith can pay big time when your building a rifle. Especially one that shoots himself and knows the game. Any good gunsmith can chamber a rifle, but the good LR 'smiths know the balance points, if a rifle combo your asking about will make weight, bedding BLOCK info
That should be it for now. boy my fingers are tired. Keep'um in the X ring... or somewhere close by. Match season starts in less than a month for us down here. Got a lot of work to do.
Steve
Steve
If I was to chamber a rifle with the same 338 lapua imp, who would you reccommend I have do it? Would you email me the contact info. for the smith that did yours?
who made your custom dies?
How much did it cost to chamber? how much were the dies?
[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: sr90 ]
If I was to chamber a rifle with the same 338 lapua imp, who would you reccommend I have do it? Would you email me the contact info. for the smith that did yours?
who made your custom dies?
How much did it cost to chamber? how much were the dies?
[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: sr90 ]
Steve Shelp
Well-Known Member
sr90,
To have the same chambering as mine it would have to be done by David Tooley of Tooley Custom Rifles in Gastonia, NC. He has the proprietary rights to this reamer design. Dave does all of my work, but you need a sense of humor when you talk to him!! He has a very good reputation and just this summer one of his rifles shot the IBS 1,000yd 5 shot world record group at the NC 1,000yd range with an official 1.603" group using another one of his reamer designs in 30 caliber. I know there are other 338 Lapua Improved designs out there but I don't know which 'smiths actually have the reamers on hand. Dave 338 Yogi reamer is actually a set ground at the same time to make the rifle chamber, then another to cut the sizing and seating dies with. Dave uses Newlon blanks for the sizing dies and then has them hardened after cutting. He seating dies are Wilson blanks that he again cuts whatever chambering you need.
I see your in Utah. I beleive John Ricks up in Washington State?? has a 338 Lapua Improved reamer also. But I can't say how similar it is to what I have. John has a good reputation also on the west coast. As for the cost.. I can't remember as it was all wrapped up in one bill and that was almost 3yrs ago now. That was a big check though. It's seems as though the dies were around $200. Dave just setback the same barrel, rechamered, recrowned, and put a slight taper on the outside of the barrel for $225 to give you an idea. See his web page for further details and he does have a price list to go by. If you want to talk to him, call!!!!.... don't email even though he has an email address right from his web page. Some old sailors just don't get it. and you can tell him I said that also!! hehehe
Steve
To have the same chambering as mine it would have to be done by David Tooley of Tooley Custom Rifles in Gastonia, NC. He has the proprietary rights to this reamer design. Dave does all of my work, but you need a sense of humor when you talk to him!! He has a very good reputation and just this summer one of his rifles shot the IBS 1,000yd 5 shot world record group at the NC 1,000yd range with an official 1.603" group using another one of his reamer designs in 30 caliber. I know there are other 338 Lapua Improved designs out there but I don't know which 'smiths actually have the reamers on hand. Dave 338 Yogi reamer is actually a set ground at the same time to make the rifle chamber, then another to cut the sizing and seating dies with. Dave uses Newlon blanks for the sizing dies and then has them hardened after cutting. He seating dies are Wilson blanks that he again cuts whatever chambering you need.
I see your in Utah. I beleive John Ricks up in Washington State?? has a 338 Lapua Improved reamer also. But I can't say how similar it is to what I have. John has a good reputation also on the west coast. As for the cost.. I can't remember as it was all wrapped up in one bill and that was almost 3yrs ago now. That was a big check though. It's seems as though the dies were around $200. Dave just setback the same barrel, rechamered, recrowned, and put a slight taper on the outside of the barrel for $225 to give you an idea. See his web page for further details and he does have a price list to go by. If you want to talk to him, call!!!!.... don't email even though he has an email address right from his web page. Some old sailors just don't get it. and you can tell him I said that also!! hehehe
Steve
Is your chamber really tight? Do you have to neck turn to get the cartridge to fit into the chamber?
Would it be a bad idea to chamber a Sako TRG repeater action with the same reamer as yours? The rifle is going to be a semi portable tactical rig 30-32 inch fluted barrel. Do you think the rounds would feed from the magazine reliably?
[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: sr90 ]
Would it be a bad idea to chamber a Sako TRG repeater action with the same reamer as yours? The rifle is going to be a semi portable tactical rig 30-32 inch fluted barrel. Do you think the rounds would feed from the magazine reliably?
[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: sr90 ]
Steve Shelp
Well-Known Member
SR90,
Yes the necks have to be turned in order to chamber a round. It's a .365" chamber neck and I turn them for a loaded round measurement of .3625"/.3630" for a .001 clearence on a side.
The dies are full length dies with a floating bushing for the neck area. But they only size between .0005 and .001" over the whole case and they are setup to bump the shoulder. So if propely sized you shouldn't have any extraction problems.
I'm not familiar with the TRG action but if it has the extracing cam design of the other Sako's and the same beefy extractor claw then it should be fine. As for feeding through the magazine, I can't say. All my rifles are single shot and I have no experience to base any opinions on, to give you any data. The sides are not tapered as much as the std 338 case so I'm sure the feed rails would have to be modified though. The question is how much and will it work after modification? I don't know. sorry.
Steve
Yes the necks have to be turned in order to chamber a round. It's a .365" chamber neck and I turn them for a loaded round measurement of .3625"/.3630" for a .001 clearence on a side.
The dies are full length dies with a floating bushing for the neck area. But they only size between .0005 and .001" over the whole case and they are setup to bump the shoulder. So if propely sized you shouldn't have any extraction problems.
I'm not familiar with the TRG action but if it has the extracing cam design of the other Sako's and the same beefy extractor claw then it should be fine. As for feeding through the magazine, I can't say. All my rifles are single shot and I have no experience to base any opinions on, to give you any data. The sides are not tapered as much as the std 338 case so I'm sure the feed rails would have to be modified though. The question is how much and will it work after modification? I don't know. sorry.
Steve
No Fear in Accuracy
Well-Known Member
Steve,
I could tell your stock is McMillan 50cal LBR? Did I win?
Does it balance well with your heavy barrel?
-DG
I could tell your stock is McMillan 50cal LBR? Did I win?
Does it balance well with your heavy barrel?
-DG
No Fear in Accuracy
Well-Known Member
How much does it weigh without 5/8" thich 304 stainless steel plates? I just want to know how heavy is the McMillan HBR stock compared to LBR.
