338 lapua/300 gr bullets/2800 fps minimum?

[Ombre noire]

Hey there...
I'd wonder if your scopes don't track the same.... My ballistics app tells me that a 300gr berger @2700fps would need about 5 moa more at a mile than one going 2800 all other variables being equal... Maybe you scope is giving you a small fraction more than 0.25 moa/click and your buddy's scope is giving a small fraction less than 0.25 moa per click... I guess it Doesn't really matter, as long as you are hitting consistently and have your dope verified you're good to go.

you could always run your scopes through a elevation test at 100 yards to verify they are in fact adjusting true .... Just get a big piece of of card board or ply wood (6 or 8 feet tall) at 100 yrds and put an aiming point at the bottom then shoot a group' then crank your elevation knob up 60 moa and shoot another group using the same aiming point measure the distance between the center of the two groups. If your scope clicks are a true 0.25 moa you should get about 62.8" between the centres of yor groups.

Don't think it would be anything to do with your neck tension causing increased pressure, because that would just translate into higher muzzle velocity... Unless of course your chronograph was off you really could be getting 2800... I'm assuming you guys used the same chronograph on the same day to get your speeds...

Other things that could be going on: your buddy's barrel is engraving the bullets more causing slightly more drag on his bullet, new lot of powder or batch of reloads since u chrono'd and you are maybe getting a bit more speed... Can't think of anything else right now... But I'd be most suspicious that it may be tracking of your scope....

Anyways.... Not that it matters, sounds like u guys are having a blast stretching the legs on your 338's! ... Making me a little jealous actually... Ive only got mine out to about 1300 yards...
Orch

Hi Orch

I am no expert, so learning as it goes and you mention several aspects we didn't think of lightbulb. The neck tension difference came to my mind, as I made two different kind of reloads. One was made using my Redding FL serie "S" with a bushing giving a .362 at the neck. It should be .364, as the bushing is a .364 but for whatever reason, it re-sizes at .362. The bushing is clean, still relatively new and theoretically .362 should be too tight but this is the FL die I have been using all along and accuracy has been more than good at all distances, so not complaining. The other FL die I used is a Forster custom made to my TRG's specs, after I sent Forster 5 once fired cases; the neck is at a true .364. So the Redding die squeezes the bullets a bit more at the neck. When I shot the 2 different kind today, I noticed I needed a few more clicks with the reloads made with the Forster die (the true .364); I did not notice a difference in accuracy and, as I only thought of making these 2 different batch yesterday, I do not have speed on the reloads made with the Forster die (2680 fps is with the Redding die).
In any case, checking out the scopes tracking makes sens, as well as using the same chronograph on the same day; we did not do any of that. As you say, we are having a blast, enjoying shooting, as well as appreciating the peace and serenity of the Nevada mountains and listening to the sound of ringing steel several second after the shots The elevation difference somewhat triggered our curiosity but as we were hitting our targets, it didn't really matter that much.
I hope you'll find a place to stretch your 338; I am not teaching you nothing here, you obviously know more than I do. I am more talking for myself; these extra few hundred yards do make a big difference, not just because of the look of it but how our loads behave and I was glad to finally have a good load for the TRG, it took me quite a while. I "almost" had something good a while ago with the 300 SMK but for whatever reason, accuracy was going bad after 1200 yards; something in my load wasn't working out. I also tried the 285 Hornady, the 250 Berger OTM, as well as the 300 Lapua but was not overwhelmed with the results, even though they work great for plenty of shooters.
We probably will keep on stretching our sticks a bit further, just because we can but to tell you the truth, I am perfectly happy with shooting a mile, as it is hard enough, especially when, unlike today, the wind starts blowing. That is a game changer and knowing how to be accurate and consistent in windy conditions shows the true quality of a shooter. I am not there yet, nor is my buddy but we will for sure have fun working on it
Thanks for your help, thoughts and comments, I will check the tracking on all my scopes; I thought about it a while ago but got side tracked and forgot about it.
Good luck and good shooting with your 338 gun)

 

[MMERSS]

The chronograph, a reliable one, is a good tool to use when encountering or suspecting range errors. Check with the velocity first then isolate further from there.

Two products recommended to help with trouble shooting and prevention from the beginning.

Putting Rounds on Target will visually take one thru the steps to calibrate or true.

Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting dives into great detail with all aspects of long range shooting.

Buy and USE them. In the long run the information gained could save much heartache.

 

[Ombre noire]

The chronograph, a reliable one, is a good tool to use when encountering or suspecting range errors. Check with the velocity first then isolate further from there.

Two products recommended to help with trouble shooting and prevention from the beginning.

Putting Rounds on Target will visually take one thru the steps to calibrate or true.

Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting dives into great detail with all aspects of long range shooting.

Buy and USE them. In the long run the information gained could save much heartache.

Thank you Sir, yes we do have some homework ahead of us

 

[MMERSS]

Thank you Sir, yes we do have some homework ahead of us

No problem....As for the homework, I find it neverending.

 

[alaska]

I settled on 91.0 of H1000 with the 300gr Berger

 

[Ombre noire]

Suggest RL 33 and you should get your 2800 FPS with the 300 gr MK
RamShot Magnum is the powder Black Hills uses in Norma Brass with 300 MK to get 2800 FPS for the military.

Hi Alaska

I tried RL33 and Ramshot Magnum as well, they are both good powders and will get the job well done; I just went with H1000. Love the way Ramshot measures in my chargemaster.
I saw your post with the 91 gr of H1000 and Berger 300; OTM or Match Grade Elite? How far were you shooting and how did it go; I assume you were still with your AR30?

 

[alaska]

Shooting 1k now
I like H1000 @ 91.0 but 92.0 shot very good at 2833 FPS

This was just a tad faster than I wanted at 2800 FPS so back down 1 gr

At 92.0 primers were flat I consider that max

I also use H1000 in my 300 Win 5R with 230 OTM which makes it convenient

Yes still using my Ar 30 Lapua

RL 33 is hard to get here
RL 26 should be excellent with 250's

 

[longrangehunterII]

Another follow up; Today 3/17/15, 0650 h, perfect day, NV desert, barely any wind, same loads, same rifle (see 1st post).
I used my buddy's dope chart and it got me **** close right away.
1460 yards, loads are still good; 3 shots to be on target, then several impacts.
1760 yards, loads are still good; 2 shots to be on target, then several impacts.
Don't get the wrong impression, we hit often but we missed a few times too

2680 fps will still deliver the 300 gr pills accurately at a mile. My buddy Mark was shooting a SAC 338LM loaded with 300 berger OTM, 91.5 gr H1000 and was ringing steel in a consistent manner too; Mark Gordon did a great job on that stick, luckily the TRG was keeping up with it. I believe his pills are close to 2800 fps, as he is using more powder and a longer barrel. An interesting fact was in our elevation; we both had Nightforce scopes, his ATACR x25 (moa/moa), mine NXS x22 (moa/moa), he has a Murphy Precision 45 moa cant rail, mine is a 35 moa badger. So even though he uses more powder, has a longer barrel and has more moa build in the rail, he still needed a bit more elevation than I did; he needed 60 moa elevation (for 1 mile) and I was at 59.75. It is very close but you would think I would need more elevation due to the facts mentioned above. As the day went on and the temps got hotter, we both needed a bit less elevation.
Anyway, all I can think of is that my loads may have more neck tension than his, which would create more pressure but then again, his pills are faster than mine on the chronograph...so if anyone has an explanation, I wouldn't mind hearing it; always curious to learn something.
Another good day in the NV desert; glad this load proved itself accurate up to a mile and long live the 2nd amendment.

First off, the TRG's use a chrome lined barrel which makes them slow, mine never reached more then 2700 fps with any powder but still remain accurate- 1/2" MOA.

Bullet drop once a scope is zeroed, if at the same distance, same velocity, will be almost the same regardless of the slope/moa of the base!lightbulb Zero at 100 yards is still zero, it just mean more adjustment in the scope over something less, and has nothing to do with how much you dial to POI.

If what you're saying is true, and you're both using the same bullet type, your buddies load is going almost the same speed and isn't any where near 2800!

If that was the case, why would he only be dialing .25 MOA more and yet still using 2" more barrel= an easy 50-60 fps. alone.

I use a .364 bushing with the Lapua cases and honestly the heavy recoil of the 338 Lapua requires a lot of neck tension just to keep the bullets from moving inside the magazine during recoil so don't sweat that BS, fully crimped bullets will still deliver excellent accuracy in a rifle of this type.

My own TRG-42 using 94.5 RL-33 F251M @ 2.9250"CBTO/.030" off with a 300 SMK only went 2600 fps and was tested over an Oehler 35P multiple times. I achieved basically the same speed you're getting with H1000 but high ES and SD's and it didn't shoot as well...... don't sweat not getting a number (2800 fps) when it doesn't make any difference in hitting objects using this caliber or anything close to it.

If it works and isn't broke, why fix it? It is just a number that I think makes no sense. Let's just say what you believe is true with what your friend says is the muzzle velocity of his round..... is .25 moa making a difference?

No.

 

[Ombre noire]

First off, the TRG's use a chrome lined barrel which makes them slow, mine never reached more then 2700 fps with any powder but still remain accurate- 1/2" MOA.

Bullet drop once a scope is zeroed, if at the same distance, same velocity, will be almost the same regardless of the slope/moa of the base!lightbulb Zero at 100 yards is still zero, it just mean more adjustment in the scope over something less, and has nothing to do with how much you dial to POI.

If what you're saying is true, and you're both using the same bullet type, your buddies load is going almost the same speed and isn't any where near 2800!

If that was the case, why would he only be dialing .25 MOA more and yet still using 2" more barrel= an easy 50-60 fps. alone.

I use a .364 bushing with the Lapua cases and honestly the heavy recoil of the 338 Lapua requires a lot of neck tension just to keep the bullets from moving inside the magazine during recoil so don't sweat that BS, fully crimped bullets will still deliver excellent accuracy in a rifle of this type.

My own TRG-42 using 94.5 RL-33 F251M @ 2.9250"CBTO/.030" off with a 300 SMK only went 2600 fps and was tested over an Oehler 35P multiple times. I achieved basically the same speed you're getting with H1000 but high ES and SD's and it didn't shoot as well...... don't sweat not getting a number (2800 fps) when it doesn't make any difference in hitting objects using this caliber or anything close to it.

If it works and isn't broke, why fix it? It is just a number that I think makes no sense. Let's just say what you believe is true with what your friend says is the muzzle velocity of his round..... is .25 moa making a difference?

No.

Hi longrangehunterII

Regarding the elevation, after corresponding with a few members here and on other forums, we are slowly figuring out a couple of ways to check things out a better way. Next time at the range, we will check the tracking on both of our scopes and we will re-check the speed of our reloads, this time using the same chronograph on the same day. This could give us part of the answer. We will also re-check how far our reloads are of the lands; so far we know his are too long to fit in his mag, mine are still GTG in the mag.
"If that was the case, why would he only be dialing .25 MOA more and yet still using 2" more barrel= an easy 50-60 fps. alone."
And he uses 91.5 gr of H1000 vs 89 gr in my reloads.
Eventually we will figure it out; could be some mistakes in the original numbers, maybe some tracking differences. Somewhere, somehow, we will find there is a logical explanation.
Regarding the 2800 fps, I had no preconceived idea, good or bad, for it or against it. Someone, on another forum, with a serious amount of knowledge, mentioned that number to my friend but did not quite explain why 2800 fps were necessary, so I asked the question on LRH, as well as other forums; lots of info and most answers were helpful. Even Bryan Litz pitched in, as he is shooting a TRG 42, 300 Berger and H1000 as well.
The "elevation thing", well, that came as extra but and whatever it is, we will figure it out. The bottom line is that we both have our dope and ringing steel with it
Thanks for your input, I will post a follow up after we will check the tracking and speed.
Good shooting to you gun)

 

[longrangehunterII]

Hi longrangehunterII

Regarding the elevation, after corresponding with a few members here and on other forums, we are slowly figuring out a couple of ways to check things out a better way. Next time at the range, we will check the tracking on both of our scopes and we will re-check the speed of our reloads, this time using the same chronograph on the same day. This could give us part of the answer. We will also re-check how far our reloads are of the lands; so far we know his are too long to fit in his mag, mine are still GTG in the mag.
"If that was the case, why would he only be dialing .25 MOA more and yet still using 2" more barrel= an easy 50-60 fps. alone."
And he uses 91.5 gr of H1000 vs 89 gr in my reloads.
Eventually we will figure it out; could be some mistakes in the original numbers, maybe some tracking differences. Somewhere, somehow, we will find there is a logical explanation.
Regarding the 2800 fps, I had no preconceived idea, good or bad, for it or against it. Someone, on another forum, with a serious amount of knowledge, mentioned that number to my friend but did not quite explain why 2800 fps were necessary, so I asked the question on LRH, as well as other forums; lots of info and most answers were helpful. Even Bryan Litz pitched in, as he is shooting a TRG 42, 300 Berger and H1000 as well.
The "elevation thing", well, that came as extra but and whatever it is, we will figure it out. The bottom line is that we both have our dope and ringing steel with it
Thanks for your input, I will post a follow up after we will check the tracking and speed.
Good shooting to you gun)

Your pointing out a few things that have nothing to do with why two different guns using the same bullet yet one "needs more gun powder and has a longer barrel" to achieve the same drop.

Pressure is just that, which is what pushes the bullet down the barrel. One barrel may require "X" amount of powder to achieve "Y'' velocity, which is why when hand loading always work up a load. Barrels can vary from tight, meaning they will require less powder to achieve the expected velocity, or slick, which will require more powder to achieve the same velocity of a given load. Which is why when developing a load you should stay within the "expected velocity range" for a given bullet in a given cartridge plus or minus the difference in barrel length for the barrel used in the reloading manual.

Another being the distance a bullet is off the lands- velocity is what the bullet is traveling regardless if jammed or .050" off the lands has nothing to do with your answer.

I'm only telling you this so you'll better understand pressure, which is nothing more then the cause and effect that develops velocity. In hand loading there are no free lunch, a case by its design is to achieve a given velocity for a given bullet in a given barrel length...... you'll notice that your rifle is achieving the expected velocity in the Berger Manual! Albeit needing more powder to obtain that velocity, which is why I said the TRG's Chrome lined barrels are slow, meaning they require more powder to achieve the same velocity-pressure. The barrel used in the Berger manual is 26", the extra 1 1/4" would put your load right about were it should be for that bullet.

It very well could be the scopes you're using but most NF scopes all dial the correct elevation gain but over that distance, the variance could add up to the differences in the field you're seeing. But to my observation, I had bet your friends load wasn't traveling 2800 simple based on the bullet drop.

I think you'll find your answer to your question when you both chronograph your loads, and check the tracking.

Good luck and let us know what you find out. Bryan is a super sharp guy, why didn't you share with us what he said? I'm curious as to what he had to say simple because none of the loads they have listed come close to 2800 fps even if you take into account the extra 2" of barrel length you'll get to about 2680 fps using H1000, and that a 300 grain bullet from the 338 Lapua should be traveling 2800 fps Minimum! Oh, but that no free lunch I talked about....... is the extra powder burned to achieve a higher velocity. Basically the load is developing a higher pressure to achieve that velocity gain.

 

[Ombre noire]

Your pointing out a few things that have nothing to do with why two different guns using the same bullet yet one "needs more gun powder and has a longer barrel" to achieve the same drop.

Pressure is just that, which is what pushes the bullet down the barrel. One barrel may require "X" amount of powder to achieve "Y'' velocity, which is why when hand loading always work up a load. Barrels can vary from tight, meaning they will require less powder to achieve the expected velocity, or slick, which will require more powder to achieve the same velocity of a given load. Which is why when developing a load you should stay within the "expected velocity range" for a given bullet in a given cartridge plus or minus the difference in barrel length for the barrel used in the reloading manual.

Another being the distance a bullet is off the lands- velocity is what the bullet is traveling regardless if jammed or .050" off the lands has nothing to do with your answer.

I'm only telling you this so you'll better understand pressure, which is nothing more then the cause and effect that develops velocity. In hand loading there are no free lunch, a case by its design is to achieve a given velocity for a given bullet in a given barrel length...... you'll notice that your rifle is achieving the expected velocity in the Berger Manual! Albeit needing more powder to obtain that velocity, which is why I said the TRG's Chrome lined barrels are slow, meaning they require more powder to achieve the same velocity-pressure. The barrel used in the Berger manual is 26", the extra 1 1/4" would put your load right about were it should be for that bullet.

It very well could be the scopes you're using but most NF scopes all dial the correct elevation gain but over that distance, the variance could add up to the differences in the field you're seeing. But to my observation, I had bet your friends load wasn't traveling 2800 simple based on the bullet drop.

I think you'll find your answer to your question when you both chronograph your loads, and check the tracking.

Good luck and let us know what you find out. Bryan is a super sharp guy, why didn't you share with us what he said? I'm curious as to what he had to say simple because none of the loads they have listed come close to 2800 fps even if you take into account the extra 2" of barrel length you'll get to about 2680 fps using H1000, and that a 300 grain bullet from the 338 Lapua should be traveling 2800 fps Minimum! Oh, but that no free lunch I talked about....... is the extra powder burned to achieve a higher velocity. Basically the load is developing a higher pressure to achieve that velocity gain.

Cole

Thanks for taking the time to go through all of this; lots of new stuff to remember but that's all good. We will run these tests and go from there.
Good shooting to you.

Here is Bryan Litz's post.

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338 lapua/300 gr bullets/2800 fps minimum?
« Reply #9 on: 10:30 AM, 03/04/15 »
Quote
There's no reason you have to be at 2800; it's just where a lot of guys end up with barrels a little longer than the TRG.

I have that same rifle also, and run about 92 gr H1000 which gets like 2770 fps with the 300's. It's stout, but doesn't seem to show too much pressure.

Take care,
-Bryan
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