300wm. What bullets should I shoot?

[Pdvdh]

Probably beaten to death by now.....

This is a hunting rifle Remington 700 WM. and I shoot no more than 500yrds.

any input appreciated.

At distances less than 500yds, and especially less than 400yds, the advantages of shooting the 200+gr high BC bullets become much less significant. The two primary advantages of the Berger 215gr .308 bullet is that they are proving to be a very accurate bullet, and they have a high BC value. Both of these features make it easier to hit an animal at long ranges, and the high BC value also helps maximize the energy (velocity) of these bullets at long ranges. So the first aspect is can you hit the game animal you're shooting at, and will the bullet you're shooting have sufficient accuracy and remaining energy at those ranges to be effective in dispatching the game animal. And at the longer ranges, well past 500yds, the 215gr Berger and similar high BC bullets have the advantages in this regard. But little to no meaningful advantage at less than 500yds.

The second aspect of bullet performance is its terminal performance upon impact with the game animal. At your distance limit of 500yds and less, I don't think you'll experience any consistent advantage using the heavier, higher BC bullets compared to the bullets you've been using - which in all likelihood, have already been performing well in killing the game they hit at those distances.

So my take on this issue would depend on your answer to this question. What benefit are you seeking in switching bullets at this time? If you're looking for better accuracy, you may find a very slight improvement in testing some of the high BC bullets in your rilfe. However, with your sporter weight rifle, you'll experience more recoil. If your factory rifle isn't equipped with a muzzle brake, you'll probably want to proceed with the installation of a muzzle brake to tame the additional recoil from these heavier bullets, compared to the lighter recoil from the bullets you're currently shooting.

If you're looking to improve terminal bullet performance, because you're currently dissatisfied with the performance of the bullets you're currently using, then I think you'll find no consistent advantage at less than 500yds. And under some shot profiles, you may experience more meat damage and less desirable bullet performance than with the two bullets you're currently using.

You've requested advice on bullet selection on a Long Range Hunting forum, and the majority of the responses may be geared toward long range distances, which most define as distances greater than 500 yds. If the bullets you've been shooting have been performing well for you, and they don't cost as much as the heavier, higher BC bullets, I don't see any compelling reason to change.

But if you like to shoot and reload, as many do, I wouldn't dismiss the opportunity to see if the heavier bullets shoot well from your rifle. And should you choose to prepare for and take shots at game at longer ranges, you'll have a bullet and load worked up that will be better suited for that purpose.

 

[mrbofus]

^^^Well put and understood. My personal limit is that 500 yrd mark and most have been much closer. I am looking for the best bullet in terms of performance and accuracy that I can load up.
Yes I reload and like to shoot. The 300 does have a brake and I enjoy shooting it.
Not that big of fan of the ballistic tips but they shoot good and I have a bunch.

What about the 185 VLDs ?

 

[Broz]

.

What about the 185 VLDs ?

There are more reasons for larger weight bullets than just BC. In my opinion, to get the most terminal performance from a fragmenting design bullet you want enough mass to fragment part off, and enough left to carry on and penetrate. I feel lighter for caliber fragmenting bullets are an accident waiting to happen, if you go light, and have a problem, don't blame the bullet for your choice. Take away weight, SD and mass, and add muzzle velocity and closer distances and you are creating the perfect storm. There are other distinct differences to the 215 Hybrid, and why I personal feel it works well at a wide variety of distances / impact velocities. One would be the .400" deep hollow void in the tip. With 24 big game kills with the 215 in my 300 win from 200 yards to 1285 yards, impact velocities from 2800 fps down to 1700, I can tell you that every one went in with a .308" hole in the hide, had large wound channels and no exit smaller than a golf ball when they exited. Not one of these 24 animals required a second shot, not one requires tracking. The reason so many here using them, have suggested them, for any game at any distance.

If you would like to see 20 documented examples from my 300 win read here.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/comparing-berger-210-vld-215-hybrid-88657/

Jeff

 

[Pdvdh]

^^^Well put and understood. My personal limit is that 500 yrd mark and most have been much closer. I am looking for the best bullet in terms of performance and accuracy that I can load up.
Yes I reload and like to shoot. The 300 does have a brake and I enjoy shooting it.
Not that big of fan of the ballistic tips but they shoot good and I have a bunch.

What about the 185 VLDs ?

It sounds like you want to try another bullet, and that you prefer bullets without tips. You haven't stated which aspect of performance you're seeking to improve.

There is no one bullet certain to shoot best (most accurately) in all rifles. You simply have to try them to learn how accurate they will shoot in your specific rifle. Pursuing accuracy can be enjoyable, but you've stated the majority of the game you shoot is at distances much less than 500yds. There are a lot of bullets sufficiently accurate for good bullet placement on mule deer and elk out to 500yds; your Nosler BTs and Hornady interlocks included.

Since the majority of your shots are fairly close (say within 200yds), if you're going to shoot a Berger VLD style bullet, I agree with the advice Broz just provided. These bullets have very thin jackets. The ONLY factor controlling their rate of expansion (fragmentation/shrapnelling) is their velocity at impact. At high impact velocity they can shrapnel like a fragmenting grenade. The best thing you can do to ensure sufficient penetration at high velocity (on other than broadside shots thru the ribs) is to shoot the heavier VLD bullets available, and hope there's still a sufficient section of rear core remaining after the bullet has shed its nose and velocity inside the animal.

These bullets can be explosive at high velocity. For purposes of illustration I provide my only very close range shot on a black bear with a 210gr Berger VLD from my 300 Win Mag. This was a finisher shot at ~7yds. The bear was lying on its side. Bullet entered the brisket and completely fragmented within about 10 inches of depth inside the animal. The width of the wound channel was just about as large as the depth of the wound channel. No portion of the bullet reached to the spine of the animal, let alone exit the top side of the bear. Had my bullet started out with 230 gr of lead core/copper jacket, perhaps the rear end of the bullet would have survived and penetrated the full width of the black bear.

Your Nosler ballistic tip and Hornady interlock bullets have much thicker jackets in the rear half of the bullets than the VLD/OTM style bullets. This is a design intended to control the rate and extent of the expansion of the bullet, and this helps to ensure the rear portion of the bullet survives in one section at high velocity impacts. I prefer this feature for close range shots where the bullets impact at high velocity. I don't shoot the VLDs/OTMs at close ranges at high velocity. There are many controlled expansion bullets available that will provide good terminal performance at the relatively close ranges you seem to shoot the majority of your deer and elk at. Nosler ballistic tips, accubonds, and partitions. Hornady interlocks and interbonds. Barnes all copper TSX or TTSX bullets. Swift Scirocco or A-Frames. Speer Grand Slams. Sierra game kings. The list goes on... If you're set on the VLD/OTM style of bullet for close range shots, I also recommend the highest weight bullet that shoots decent out of your rifle. You don't need 1/2moa accuracy out to 500yds. 1moa is more than sufficient to hit the lethal zone on large game. The heavier the bullet, the slower the muzzle velocity, the slower the impact velocity, the longer the lead core, which all help to improve the odds of sufficient penetration, and reduce the odds the bullet turns the muscle into mince-meat at the point of impact.

 

[mrbofus]

PHORWATH,

Thank you for you in depth response and explanation.

I guess what I need to do is just try some different heavier bullets like the interlocks or Partitions etc to see what performs acceptable.
I am wanting the best performing bullet that will offer clean ethical kills with the most energy and controlled expansion. ( of course I still need to do my part).

Like I stated earlier, most reading I do people shoot heavier bullets of of the 300.
I will save the 215's for practicing my extended range.

What I am reading here is that the VLD style bullet for under the 500 yrd mark really isnt necessary?

I understand what you said about close range and VLDs, I have seen first hand what close range and high velocity can do. Not pretty.

 

[Pdvdh]

When using a controlled expansion design bullet, it isn't nearly as important to shoot the heaviest bullet available. These bullets will typically retain their rear sections intact, even at high impact velocities. This helps ensure adequate penetration, without as much meat shredding, at high velocity impacts.

The VLD/OTMs are not controlled expansion design bullets, which is why the best thing one can do if planting them into game at high impact velocity is to start out with the heaviest bullet available. Then hope there's enough remaining bullet core to provide sufficient penetration on less than ideal shot presentations.

500yds is starting to get out their range-wise. If most of your shots were past 350-400yds, well that's the range where I start to prefer higher BC bullets. But there are still plenty of relatively high BC controlled expansion bullets that will perform splendidly out to 500yds. Anything under 300yds I'll use a controlled expansion bullet to minimize bullet splatter and meat damage, and to ensure good penetration. I'm not concerned about BC value under 300yds. Anything over 400yds, I'll be shooting a bullet with a reasonably high BC value.

I get the idea the majority of the game animals you shoot are less than 275yds. Very few exceeding 275yds, and you don't shoot if the animal is more than 500yds. If I were only going to load and shoot a single bullet within those conditions of use, I would not select the VLD/OTM style bullets. I would shoot 180-210gr relatively high BC controlled expansion bullets such as the Nosler Ballistic Tips, Nosler Accubonds, Swift Sciroccos, Sierra Game Kings... The BC values on these bullets is more than adequate to reach out to 500yds for the occasional longer shot. And these bullets will all normally together quite well at point blank range.

I prepare to hunt and shoot out to ~1000yds. I reload and carry two separate bullets. I'm currently loading and shooting heavy for caliber Hornady A-Max and Berger VLD/OTM bullets for use from 400-1000yds in 7mm and .308 caliber rifles. For shots under 300yds in my .300 Win Mag, I've loaded and used 180 and 200gr Nosler Accubonds, 180gr Swift A-Frames, and 200gr Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. For shots under 300yds in my .280AI and 7mm Rem Mags, I load and use 160gr Nosler Ballistic Tips, 160gr Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, and 160gr Barnes TSX bullets. I spend little time developing these "closer" range loads. They're all plenty accurate for their intended closer range use. I invest a lot more time developing the long range loads, trying to eek out very good accuracy.

 

[North Idaho Hunter]

Phorwath,
Where would you categorize the Amax in hunting situations?

 

[RevJim]

Back in the late '90s I used two Remington 700 300 winmags. A 700 classic (with a brake) and a 700 BDL SS. I used the Nosler 180BT then switched to the then common Barnes 180 XBT, exclusively in the Classic. I used 150 Pro Hunters, (for some deer) and then the Barnes 180XBT in the BDL SS, both rifles liked my recipe: Winchester cases, 76gr/R22, Fed 215M primer. Mule deer in Utah, whitetails in Texas, Red Hartebeest, Zebra, Blue wildebeest, Kudu, blesbok, Impala, warthog, gemsbok and springbok in Namibia and South Africa. ( I was really blessed to get to take three trips over there) When the 300 RUM came out, I had a rifle made up for my Marine SIL and gave it to him upon his return from his 2nd tour in Iraq. Mod 700 action, Shilen 26" (braked), trim laminated stock, Shilen trigger. It is actually a sporter weight rifle. I worked him up a load with the Nosler 200AB and Retumbo. He put a Husquema (sp?) scope on it and shoots it out to 1000. Killed a big cow elk around 450 with it last year. If you just want a heavy hitter for all around, I use the Nosler 200 Partition in my 30-06 for elk, its even better in the 300. Good luck and have a ball! I fell back to a 26" 7mm Rem Mag for my latest toy. I am too spooked by the wind ( I'm a poor judge of wind out in the prairie and sage flats!) to shoot out past 375 or so myself, ha.

 

[Pdvdh]

A-Max bullets are thin jacketed fragmenting bullets, in the same class as VLD/OTMs, but with a tip inserted into the nose. They have a good (high) BC value, and a reputation for excellent accuracy. And they're attractively priced. I consider them a good long range bullet, where impact velocities are reduced. As with VLDs, I would only use the heavier weight offerings, in the effort to ensure adequate bullet retention and penetration on large game. I use the 162gr 7mm A-Max in my .280AI for long range shots, and experience good accuracy. I wouldn't, and don't, use them under high velocity impacts on game at close range.

I happen to like tipped bullets for long range lower velocity impacts. I think tips help ensure more consistent bullet expansion, particularly at reduced velocity, compared to similarly thin-jacketed VLD/OTM bullets.

 

[bigngreen]

I've been in on a pretty good pile of elk kills with 300's, 165 and 168 Barnes and 180 -200 gr Accubonds, switching to the 215 Berger was a whole new class of terminal performance and accuracy. You could not pay me to shoot elk with a Barnes or Accubond today, it's not BC that swayed me it's what I see through the scope when they hit an elk and then what I see on the insides first at close range then working my way out. I have not shot an elk a second time with them. I can't say the same for the others. Now I've drop back to using a 308 with a 215 Berger in it but I stay inside 800 with it.
I know some very good elk guides that were blown away by the 215 Berger performance, near and far!

When you shoot open tip bullets EACH bullet has to be weight on it's own merit and function with on game performance. Jacket thickness, meplat diameter and nose cavity will play a role in every bullet.

 

[Pdvdh]

I've been in on a pretty good pile of elk kills with 300's, 165 and 168 Barnes and 180 -200 gr Accubonds, switching to the 215 Berger was a whole new class of terminal performance and accuracy.

Rhian,
Broz mentioned 200 yds and farther. Have you observed the 215s terminal performance at 300 Win Mag MVs on elk/deer at distances less than 200yds? How much bullet-damaged shoulder meat, if you've observed any shoulder hits, and what kind of wound channels and depth of penetration was observed at these closer range, higher velocity impacts?

 

[TonyQ]

I took a bull last year the first hit was at 1200 yards and it hit him in the rear hindquarter amd it looked like a bomb went off it was completely destroyed. The bullet was a 215 gr Berger hybrid going 2900 fps at muzzle and at Impact estimated at 1839 fps and 1614ft-lbs. The second shot hit him perfect lung shot and he took a couple of steps and dropped. These bullets do not play around

 

[mrbofus]

So really more confused now with all the great responses.

I loaded up another batch of 180 Bt's last nite playing with the length a little.

I will pick up some 200 somethings and give them a try.

I honestly do not see myself shooting at anything bigger than a rockchuck at over 500 yards with out alot of practice and good instruction.

cheers,

 

[RevJim]

Back when I was using the Nosler 180BT they were still pretty fragile. I killed an antelope doe around 360yds, quartering toward me and it ruined a lot of meat...not hard to do on antelope anyhow, ha. Later that year, I shot a 3x3 muley about 80yds with it. He was down in an aspen bowl, looking up at me. I shot him through the neck and it blew up pretty good, shrapnel went into his withers, ruining more tasty meat, ha. That's when I went to the Barnes 180XBT. While that's only two critters, and that 180BT was super accurate, I just didn't want to fool with it anymore. Today's 180BT has been toughened up, as you probably know or have read about, and I would have to try it again IF I still used the 300WM. The only Ballistic tip I'm going to use in this 7mm REM Mag is the 150 and that's for deer. I'm also playing with the 165 Sierra/Partitions and 175 Sierras/Partitions...life is good! I've never used any Berger but they sure are popular out here in Utah.