3 groove barrels
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Wind Dancer
Active Member
Don't know about three groves but my first high power rifle was a 1903-A3 Springfield 30-06 with a two grove barrel. My research indicated that at some extreme range (never quantified)the bullets would be less stable...or become unstable at a shorter range than with more groves. However, that was the opinion of an Army armorer about 35 years ago...for what its worth!
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
I haven't found them to last any longer or be more accurate. The only thing I have found that they do is tear up fragile J4 jackets found on many match VLD bullets.
I was all hot on them 2 years ago, now I think 4,5,6, and 8's are easier on bullets.
I was all hot on them 2 years ago, now I think 4,5,6, and 8's are easier on bullets.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
I would agree somewhat with Goodgrouper on his comments. At least as far as heing harder in thin jacketed match bullets.
Of course I have only noticed this with fast twist barrels.
In standard twist barrels I have shot the J-4 jacketed bullets at extreme velocity(4100 fps with a 100 gr) with groups in the .2"s and .3"s in my 257 Allen Magnum.
Lilja says they are faster then a standard 6 groove and I tend to agree but to what extent it is very hard to tell. Perhaps 30 to 40 fps at the most.
I have found they foul less then a 6 groove and barrel life is also significantly longer. THis is why I use only Lilja 3 groove barrels in my 257, 6.5 and 270 AM rifles and any other extreme performance rifles I build.
Again, I have found that a 3 groove will tear a match bullet up very quickly in a fast twist barrel. Much quicker then a 6 groove.
Good Shooting!!
Kirby Allen (50)
Of course I have only noticed this with fast twist barrels.
In standard twist barrels I have shot the J-4 jacketed bullets at extreme velocity(4100 fps with a 100 gr) with groups in the .2"s and .3"s in my 257 Allen Magnum.
Lilja says they are faster then a standard 6 groove and I tend to agree but to what extent it is very hard to tell. Perhaps 30 to 40 fps at the most.
I have found they foul less then a 6 groove and barrel life is also significantly longer. THis is why I use only Lilja 3 groove barrels in my 257, 6.5 and 270 AM rifles and any other extreme performance rifles I build.
Again, I have found that a 3 groove will tear a match bullet up very quickly in a fast twist barrel. Much quicker then a 6 groove.
Good Shooting!!
Kirby Allen (50)
After hearing how good sierra match kings perform on game i tried the 240 gr. mk in my 300 ultra mag imp. on a montana hunt for mule deer and elk. My gun has a 3 groove 10 twist pac-nor barrel. I shoot a mule deer at 80 yards and the bullet totally blew up when it hit the rib cage. The inside of the deer was mush,but no part of the bullet reached the other side on the broadside shot. I was very disappointed with the bullet performance and would not even think of shooting at a elk with that bullet. Maybe the 3 groove had something to with it,but i am done hunting big game with match bullets.
Pete Lincoln
Well-Known Member
Rem 700, could have told you that before you went hunting. admitting to doing what you did would cost you your hunting licence and as such your guns here buddy. Use a decent hunting bullet next time eh..
Pete
Pete
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
REM700,
The problem was not the bullet, barrel or rifle, it was simply the use of this bullet in a situation where it had no business being used.
Smk perform great with this bullet weight on lighter game such as deer at extended ranges. Not open sighted Revolver hunting ranges.
As stated before, use the correct bullet for the job at hand. THe 300 RUM Imp is a very large round capable of high velocity even with these heavy bullets.
If you will be taking shots at under 500 yards, there is no good reason to use a Matchking over a true hunting bullet such as the 200 gr Accubond which would have served you much better.
TO be honest, at the range you shot your deer, I would say a 180 gr Partition would have had a partition failure nearly 90% of the time.
We need to be sure we use the correct horsepower for the job we are doing. If we want a screamer for use at short range, we need to step up and use a bullet that will survive the strain. There is no conventional cup jacketed bullet that would survive what you asked of this bullet.
That said, I bet that deer did not go far after the shot.
Please do not think this was a bullet FAILURE. This was simply a case of mental failure, choosing the wrong bullet for the job at hand. Be realistic and practical as you have gained useful experience. DO nto blame the bullet or barrel for your poor choice.
Learn from it and accept that fact that it was your failure. We all do it from time to time, learn from it and get smarter because of it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif!!!
Good Shooting!!!
Kirby Allen(50)
The problem was not the bullet, barrel or rifle, it was simply the use of this bullet in a situation where it had no business being used.
Smk perform great with this bullet weight on lighter game such as deer at extended ranges. Not open sighted Revolver hunting ranges.
As stated before, use the correct bullet for the job at hand. THe 300 RUM Imp is a very large round capable of high velocity even with these heavy bullets.
If you will be taking shots at under 500 yards, there is no good reason to use a Matchking over a true hunting bullet such as the 200 gr Accubond which would have served you much better.
TO be honest, at the range you shot your deer, I would say a 180 gr Partition would have had a partition failure nearly 90% of the time.
We need to be sure we use the correct horsepower for the job we are doing. If we want a screamer for use at short range, we need to step up and use a bullet that will survive the strain. There is no conventional cup jacketed bullet that would survive what you asked of this bullet.
That said, I bet that deer did not go far after the shot.
Please do not think this was a bullet FAILURE. This was simply a case of mental failure, choosing the wrong bullet for the job at hand. Be realistic and practical as you have gained useful experience. DO nto blame the bullet or barrel for your poor choice.
Learn from it and accept that fact that it was your failure. We all do it from time to time, learn from it and get smarter because of it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif!!!
Good Shooting!!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Pete and Fifty you guys are right about my bullet choice. My gun was build to be a long range carry rifle but a short shot presented itself. I never used match bullets for big game before this. I used them because of what others have told me about heavier mk's staying together so well. I guess sometimes you need to figure things out for your self. I had a swift scirocco retain 80% of its weight on a similar shot on a cow elk the year before. Lesson learned.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Rem700,
Taking advice from others is not a fault on your part my friend and I hope you did not take my post as a flame toward you. These things happen when testing new things.
I myself had a similiar experience with a prototype bullet for my 257 Allen Mag, at the time I was testing the bullet in a 257 STW as it was the largest, fastest 257 around at the time. The bullet was a new 130 gr bonded Core prototype bullet.
Amazing bullet but against the makers advice I tried it on deer at this 3500 fps velocity. I took a shot on a big whitetail doe at 508 yards and hit her perfectly behind the shoulder. She ran 20 yards and piled up dead.
I later discovered that even at +500 yards with a starting muzzle velocity of nearly 3500 fps, this bullet was not stout enough in the jacket to handle the strain and lost alot of bullet weight. I will not say it let loose in any way because there was still a mangled mess of lead and copper. Still it was the wrong bullet for the situation and I was advised of this before hand.
In my case I did not listen to good advice even though as far as harvesting the animal I could not have asked for a better result.
Still, we now know that even at extreme range, at these velocity levels a stouter bullet will be needed for the 257 Allen Mag and such a bullet has been designed.
The nice thing is that if you make a quality shot placement in the chest of a big game, more then likely you will cleanly and quickly harvest the animal no matter what bullet is used.
Just build on your data base as far as bullet performance goes and you will be served well by this experience.
No flame intended at all, we are all in a learning stage /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Taking advice from others is not a fault on your part my friend and I hope you did not take my post as a flame toward you. These things happen when testing new things.
I myself had a similiar experience with a prototype bullet for my 257 Allen Mag, at the time I was testing the bullet in a 257 STW as it was the largest, fastest 257 around at the time. The bullet was a new 130 gr bonded Core prototype bullet.
Amazing bullet but against the makers advice I tried it on deer at this 3500 fps velocity. I took a shot on a big whitetail doe at 508 yards and hit her perfectly behind the shoulder. She ran 20 yards and piled up dead.
I later discovered that even at +500 yards with a starting muzzle velocity of nearly 3500 fps, this bullet was not stout enough in the jacket to handle the strain and lost alot of bullet weight. I will not say it let loose in any way because there was still a mangled mess of lead and copper. Still it was the wrong bullet for the situation and I was advised of this before hand.
In my case I did not listen to good advice even though as far as harvesting the animal I could not have asked for a better result.
Still, we now know that even at extreme range, at these velocity levels a stouter bullet will be needed for the 257 Allen Mag and such a bullet has been designed.
The nice thing is that if you make a quality shot placement in the chest of a big game, more then likely you will cleanly and quickly harvest the animal no matter what bullet is used.
Just build on your data base as far as bullet performance goes and you will be served well by this experience.
No flame intended at all, we are all in a learning stage /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Alg,
Hornady A-Maxs have let loose before anything in the fast twist 3 groove barrels but the Bergers are not far behind. I have found that seating the bullets into the lands relatively hard, of course after cautious load developement has resulted in these two bullets being able to handle higher velocities in these fast twist barrels then if they are seated off the lands.
This is due to the bullet not gaining linaer velocity before they engage the rifling which I believe stresses the jacket core bond and destroys accuracy. Seating into the lands starts the bullet rotating as soon as it starts moving down the bore. THis is less stressful on the thinner jacketed bullets.
I have not seen this as much in the thicker jacketed Sierra and Wildcat bullets.
Good Shooting!!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Hornady A-Maxs have let loose before anything in the fast twist 3 groove barrels but the Bergers are not far behind. I have found that seating the bullets into the lands relatively hard, of course after cautious load developement has resulted in these two bullets being able to handle higher velocities in these fast twist barrels then if they are seated off the lands.
This is due to the bullet not gaining linaer velocity before they engage the rifling which I believe stresses the jacket core bond and destroys accuracy. Seating into the lands starts the bullet rotating as soon as it starts moving down the bore. THis is less stressful on the thinner jacketed bullets.
I have not seen this as much in the thicker jacketed Sierra and Wildcat bullets.
Good Shooting!!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Let me relate a little experience I've had with bullet performance from a 338 Win Mag with a 250 Sierra spitzer boatail with a muzzle velocity of 2780fps. Years ago I shot a Mule Deer forked horn. I was above him sitting watching two passes over a ridge I knew had lots of deer on it. The shot was about 50yds and vaporized about 2" of back bone and where 3 ribs connected on one side and 4 ribs on the other. The bullet showoed near perfect mushrooming and performance. I recovered it under the skin off side in the brisket. At the time I decided that this would mean I shouldn't take a shoulder shot on Elk or Moose with this bullet.
In '87 I shot a Moose broadside @ 150 yards the bullet hit a rib and exploded, but I recovered all the fragments in the off side rib area some in the ribs and some almost completely through the ribs. When the Moose fell his feet went up in the air almost 90 degrees and he flopped down dead.
In '90 I shot a Moose with a similar shot. This time he walked about 3 or 4 steps and sat down with his head up. I fired another shot and he stayed there! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I thought, "Wait a minute a Moose wouldn't just go sit down like that after being shot at". Sure enough after I reloaded and went up to check him his head had landed on a piece of wood I couldn't see making it look like he was sitting there with his head up. The two shots were about 1/2" apart and surprisingly neither hit a rib. Absolutely no meat damage on this animal /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif and his heart was loose in his chest.
In my new Weatherby Accumark 338/378 I'm planning to develope a load with the 300gr SMK for my intermediate and long range bullet and another load with a Swift Bonded Core 275gr for under 300 yards. Of course I'm hoping it will be possible to approximate the ballistics of the Sierra by slightly downloading the lighter bonded Swift bullet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif I thought I'd run this by people here to see if this seems reasonable. I'm open to suggestion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
In '87 I shot a Moose broadside @ 150 yards the bullet hit a rib and exploded, but I recovered all the fragments in the off side rib area some in the ribs and some almost completely through the ribs. When the Moose fell his feet went up in the air almost 90 degrees and he flopped down dead.
In '90 I shot a Moose with a similar shot. This time he walked about 3 or 4 steps and sat down with his head up. I fired another shot and he stayed there! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I thought, "Wait a minute a Moose wouldn't just go sit down like that after being shot at". Sure enough after I reloaded and went up to check him his head had landed on a piece of wood I couldn't see making it look like he was sitting there with his head up. The two shots were about 1/2" apart and surprisingly neither hit a rib. Absolutely no meat damage on this animal /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif and his heart was loose in his chest.
In my new Weatherby Accumark 338/378 I'm planning to develope a load with the 300gr SMK for my intermediate and long range bullet and another load with a Swift Bonded Core 275gr for under 300 yards. Of course I'm hoping it will be possible to approximate the ballistics of the Sierra by slightly downloading the lighter bonded Swift bullet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif I thought I'd run this by people here to see if this seems reasonable. I'm open to suggestion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
