270WSM vs. 7WSM Terminal Performance

[bigngreen]

I've seen many deer shot with a 7mm mag and they never ran, I've not owned one myself, the 25-06 seems to knock deer down at long range 1st shot almost every-time.

The 7mm mag is an old cartridge, and back in the day when people used FMJ bullets on deer it would not surprise me deer would run off.
comparing a 7mm with fmj ammo and bad shooting to a 270 wsm with ballistic tips isn't convincing.

the .277 have poor bullets for long range ballistics. I mean yes the Berger 150 has a .545 BC but out of a 270 it's going to have a rainbow trajectory.


the 7mm 168 VLD (617 bc) will be about as fast as a 150 from a 270..


the 277 Berger 140 vld has a worse (487) BC the a 7mm 140 VLD (510).. doesn't make sense, but the bigger bore same weight is better in this case.
and the 7mm WSM will most certainly shoot a 140 faster than a 140 in a .270 WSM as it is less overbore. a lose lose for the 270.


if we talk about the 6.5 WSM
. A 6.5 WSM with a 140 (BC of .618) grn VLD bullet and slightly more overbore, would be amybe 25-50 fps slower than the 270 WSM VLD 140 but would have an EXTREAME advantage at long range, by 100 yards the 6.5 WSM will be after than the 270 WSM
The 130 VLD with a .552 BC kills any the 277 has to offer, and would be like a laser beam (FLAT Shooting) I have heard of people getting140's to 3400 fps with 28 inch 6.5 WSM, so the 130 would be 3500 fps easy


If one knows his ballistics and drop to say 600 yards, all this doesn't matter anyway. but the 25 and 27 bores are the worst for high bc bullets.

I have a 25-06 and I know this all too well, the 108 JLK with a .500 bc is the best I can get. I shoot the .523-.466 BC 115 VLD's at a easy 3200 fps
But at long range the .243 .264 and .284 bullets are vastly better.

but if one wants to shoot at game out to 600-1000 yards, the .277 bore is one of the worst on the planet

the 6.5 WSM and 7mm WSM with it's much better bullets would be VASTLY superior to a 270 WSM at long range.

the story of your dad, or those 20,000 guys with 7mm mags that lost deer to a 7mm bullet are not going to cut the cake, the same 7mm guy will tell you of the 30,000 different deer shot by a 270 that ran away. Lets be realistic here.

let us not take extreme examples and blow them ouyt of proportion. I have seen Farmers take a .22 lr and kill deer 1st shoot drop in it's tracks, and I've seen a 12 gauge slug (72 caliber) go through a deers vitals and it run away for 1/2 mile . does this mean at 30 yards a .22 has more deer killing ability than a 3 inch magnum slug from a 12 gauge at 30 yards?

Your 270 bullet data is old, we now have a 165, 170 and 175gr bullets with BC's ranging from .650 to .703 and all can be pushed over 3000 fps in a 270 WSM with a 26-28in barrel. My dad is shooting a 6.5 that pushes the 140 Berger 3200ish fps and it will not match my 270 WSM with 165's at long range shooting them side by side. The 170 Berger is just getting the kinks worked out but once on line I'll have a bullet with a .703 BC that I can easily run in the 3050fps range which the 7mm WSM won't run with it even with a 180 Berger so the reality of the situation is right now the 270 WSM has some of the best ballistics for long range hunting in the WSM line!!!
I killed a bull at 865 yards EASY with my 270 WSM and 165's this year and from putting the best 6.5 bullets on game vs the best 270 cal the 270 easily out ranges it but the 270 and the 7mm are very close but if I'm going to shoot a 7mm I'm going to shoot something that will launch the soon to be released 195 Berger 3000-3200fps which will be an actual improvement over my 270 WSM.

 

[Jordan Smith]

The 195 Berger at 2950fps from the same 28" barrel would put the 170 to shame

 

[Jordan Smith]

Ya, when animals run off, its bullet construction, mv at impact and where you hit them. Doesn't really matter what case sent out the bullet.

+1000

Amen to that

 

[RTK]

Ya, when animals run off, its bullet construction, mv at impact and where you hit them. Doesn't really matter what case sent out the bullet.

There's the answer.

 

[teflonhunter]

+1000

Amen to that

Thats what I'm thinking too.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

I shoot the 140 Berger out of a 270 WSM at 3307fps, I haven't got it on enough game to know all the variables but so far under 400 yrds they go in and then shread everything inside of a 8in circle and you find the jacket under the of side, DRT
The 270 WSM get's there in a flat hurry, I've got almost 800 rounds through mine and it still surprises me some times, and man it hits hard. The first couple deer I shot with my dad spotting and he was just shock at how hard they hit, kinda gives ya the giggles.

I favor the 270 anyday of the week over a 7mm when it comes to putting game on the ground, every year I try to salavage meat off of critters that have been pounded by 7mm's that couldn't get it done in one shot. It's my very biased opinion but there is something that isn't quite right with the 7mm when you look at terminal performance vs a 270 cal.

Why would you hit a deer hit twice with a 7mm? They don't need it. They fall before you chamber another round if you put it in the slats. 280, 7mag, 7mmstw, 7rum; it doesn't matter.
I'm not very partial to the wsm cartridges; most people beat the living hell out of them to get bragging speed. I've had family with a bunch of them, and they've gotten rid of almost all of their wsm's. We still have a 25wssm rifle and a 300 wsm pistol.
Get a bigger cartridge instead of beating it up, and put a strain guage on your rifle if you don't believe me.

 

[scottyd2506]

Your 270 bullet data is old, we now have a 165, 170 and 175gr bullets with BC's ranging from .650 to .703 and all can be pushed over 3000 fps in a 270 WSM with a 26-28in barrel. My dad is shooting a 6.5 that pushes the 140 Berger 3200ish fps and it will not match my 270 WSM with 165's at long range shooting them side by side. The 170 Berger is just getting the kinks worked out but once on line I'll have a bullet with a .703 BC that I can easily run in the 3050fps range which the 7mm WSM won't run with it even with a 180 Berger so the reality of the situation is right now the 270 WSM has some of the best ballistics for long range hunting in the WSM line!!!
I killed a bull at 865 yards EASY with my 270 WSM and 165's this year and from putting the best 6.5 bullets on game vs the best 270 cal the 270 easily out ranges it but the 270 and the 7mm are very close but if I'm going to shoot a 7mm I'm going to shoot something that will launch the soon to be released 195 Berger 3000-3200fps which will be an actual improvement over my 270 WSM.

Where do you get these Berger 165's in .277? because anyone can look up the site or any other and they are not available. please give proof!

Are You talking about Matrix bullets? the .277 175 VLD that has a BC of .782?

or the Matrix .284 190 VLD with a .807 BC.


it does seem the 270 has some good bullets, but how long will this bullet company be around, just a few years back we had a company that offered .277 169.5 ULD bulets with good bc, and they are no longer around.

might be stuck with a 270 8 twist that has no bullets for it in 2-5 years.
Berger will be around for awhile.

where is the proof that Berger is making a VLD bigger than 150 in .277. Give me one sight that lists a 170 Berger .277.

Other than buying ultra low popularity off brand name bullets that the small dinky company may not be around next year, the .277 offers nothing except the 150 Berger VLD with a .538 BC and that is it. Although those Matrix bullets are impressive in .277 and .284

it would be nice if more bullet makers (long standing) offer better .277 bullets like they do .264 and .284 calibers . I hope you are right!
as the .270 WSM is a awesome round/

 

[Beng]

where is the proof that Berger is making a VLD bigger than 150 in .277. Give me one sight that lists a 170 Berger .277.

Here's some Information.

 

[bigngreen]

Where do you get these Berger 165's in .277? because anyone can look up the site or any other and they are not available. please give proof!

Are You talking about Matrix bullets? the .277 175 VLD that has a BC of .782?

or the Matrix .284 190 VLD with a .807 BC.


it does seem the 270 has some good bullets, but how long will this bullet company be around, just a few years back we had a company that offered .277 169.5 ULD bulets with good bc, and they are no longer around.

might be stuck with a 270 8 twist that has no bullets for it in 2-5 years.
Berger will be around for awhile.

where is the proof that Berger is making a VLD bigger than 150 in .277. Give me one sight that lists a 170 Berger .277.

Other than buying ultra low popularity off brand name bullets that the small dinky company may not be around next year, the .277 offers nothing except the 150 Berger VLD with a .538 BC and that is it. Although those Matrix bullets are impressive in .277 and .284

it would be nice if more bullet makers (long standing) offer better .277 bullets like they do .264 and .284 calibers . I hope you are right!
as the .270 WSM is a awesome round/

Bob Beck of Extreme Outer Limits has been shooting the .277 170 in early testing but Berger has to tune up a die before they hit the shelf in mass and then the are planning a 7mm 195 gr to come next. Search Berger EOL in the upper RH corner and you'll find several threads on this site outlining these bullets. I honestly never thought I'd see Berger do it, I've been trying for years to get them to but Bob Beck gotter done!

The think a guy has to understand with Matrix is the BC listed is a calculated BC, field experience has show a BC around .650 for the .277 165 and .670+ for the 175, and the 190 7mm is right with the 180 Berger hybrid according to Litz testing, hopefully Litz will run the .277 cal Matrix out as well and we'll have a better idea. I'm not worried about Matrix Ballistics, they have a complete line of bullets for a lot of cals so they don't have all their eggs in one basket, when I order I have them by the end of the week every time and Marshal is easy to get a hold of. Matrix Ballistics isn't huge in the lower 48 unless your shooting bullets that fit what is currently lacking but from what I gather they do a good business in Canada and I know some BR shooters are using them in the states.

I've been down the Wildcat bullet path and got stiffed a pile of bullets so I am gun shy about bullet makers, Matrix ballistics has not had any shaddy feeling at all in any of the dealing I or friends have had with them so I have no issues putting special twist barrels on, which I haven't had to do since the 165 and 175 Matrix stabilize in a 1-10 twist at my elevation like rock stars but I will use a 1-9 for the next barrel just to make sure the 170 Berger will be OK.

I'm not pushing my 270 WSM to the edge to get this performance with the larger bullets, when I chamber a barrel I get a fresh batch of brass and it will last me till the barrel is shot out and I go 20+ loading on it. I have a Pressure Trace system that I will be using to test some wildcats designs in the near future so I'll put a gauge on my 270 WSM while I'm at it.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

I'm not pushing my 270 WSM to the edge to get this performance with the larger bullets, when I chamber a barrel I get a fresh batch of brass and it will last me till the barrel is shot out and I go 20+ loading on it. I have a Pressure Trace system that I will be using to test some wildcats designs in the near future so I'll put a gauge on my 270 WSM while I'm at it.

Good to hear you aren't working your rifle that hard. You are also talking of longer barrels than most that I've seen for the wsm's. The pressure trace works well but my brother in law has the one I've used, and it's hell to get him to the range so I haven't bothered for years to put a strain gauge on a rifle.
One thing I notice here is you are both bantering about bore diameters that are .007 apart, so to most people meaningless other than compatibility. I shoot both 270's and 7mm's, there isn't an iota of difference there other than case capacity and what the bore actually likes.

 

[scottyd2506]

Bob Beck of Extreme Outer Limits has been shooting the .277 170 in early testing but Berger has to tune up a die before they hit the shelf in mass and then the are planning a 7mm 195 gr to come next. Search Berger EOL in the upper RH corner and you'll find several threads on this site outlining these bullets. I honestly never thought I'd see Berger do it, I've been trying for years to get them to but Bob Beck gotter done!

The think a guy has to understand with Matrix is the BC listed is a calculated BC, field experience has show a BC around .650 for the .277 165 and .670+ for the 175, and the 190 7mm is right with the 180 Berger hybrid according to Litz testing, hopefully Litz will run the .277 cal Matrix out as well and we'll have a better idea. I'm not worried about Matrix Ballistics, they have a complete line of bullets for a lot of cals so they don't have all their eggs in one basket, when I order I have them by the end of the week every time and Marshal is easy to get a hold of. Matrix Ballistics isn't huge in the lower 48 unless your shooting bullets that fit what is currently lacking but from what I gather they do a good business in Canada and I know some BR shooters are using them in the states.

I've been down the Wildcat bullet path and got stiffed a pile of bullets so I am gun shy about bullet makers, Matrix ballistics has not had any shaddy feeling at all in any of the dealing I or friends have had with them so I have no issues putting special twist barrels on, which I haven't had to do since the 165 and 175 Matrix stabilize in a 1-10 twist at my elevation like rock stars but I will use a 1-9 for the next barrel just to make sure the 170 Berger will be OK.

I'm not pushing my 270 WSM to the edge to get this performance with the larger bullets, when I chamber a barrel I get a fresh batch of brass and it will last me till the barrel is shot out and I go 20+ loading on it. I have a Pressure Trace system that I will be using to test some wildcats designs in the near future so I'll put a gauge on my 270 WSM while I'm at it.

It is high and time the .277 has some good bullets, the 270 WSM is a nice round, I have never even considered the 27 bore for that reason. my main rifle is a 25-06 and I know all too well about not having good bullets.
a good 7-10 years ago, the Berger 115 VLD had better bc than any .277 bullet, not the BC was cut from .523 to .466 and Berger and other make good bullets, although not as good as the 6.5 (up untill these new bullets come out)

The 7mm 195 sounds like it will be a good bullets,, but getting 3000 fps out of a WSM case with a bullet that is almost 200 grains is not going to be easy, the .300 win mag can not do this unless very long barrel and hot loads, and the 300 mag is 100-200 fps faster than a WSM.

Actually the 270 sounds like a better choice, with a 170 VLD and .700 BC. a 170 should get 3000 -3100 fps out of WSM case with a 26 inch tube.

looks like I lose and you have a good point.. may even get a 270 WSM
I would like to see a good .257 bullet in like 145 grain VLD and .700bc 3300 fps out of a 25 WSM would be a nice low recoil hard hitting combo.

good shooting

 

[scottyd2506]

Good to hear you aren't working your rifle that hard. You are also talking of longer barrels than most that I've seen for the wsm's. The pressure trace works well but my brother in law has the one I've used, and it's hell to get him to the range so I haven't bothered for years to put a strain gauge on a rifle.
One thing I notice here is you are both bantering about bore diameters that are .007 apart, so to most people meaningless other than compatibility. I shoot both 270's and 7mm's, there isn't an iota of difference there other than case capacity and what the bore actually likes.

I am not putting down the 27 bore, just that no good bullets for it yet. this .007 is the same for the .257 vs .264... one really has no big advantage if we talk caliber, but the bullet s in the .264 (6.5) are soooo muuuucccchhh better.
Good long range bullets in the 24 26 and 28's, poor in the 22 25 and 27.
it is good to see berger making a high bc .277 170 VLD