25-06 vs 25-06AI

[Nitroused383]

It appears you cannot attatch files on this forum. If anyone is interested I can email you my spreadsheet I have for all my load info with the 115 VLD's. I have played with all sorts of seating depths also, it seems to prefer a .040" jump. I have had best luck using the 270 brass as you can trim it to the length you need, I believe the neck is .040" longer or so? The 270 brass also seems to be a little tougher and last longer. I really want to try some 30-06 Lapua brass, because this Winchester brass doesn't hold WLR primers very well.

I was very reluctant to try the old IMR-4831 powder because of all the new powders that claimed better temperature stability and accuracy. IMR-4831 was designed for the 06 cartridge and it just flat out works. I really wanted H-1000 to be my most accurate load but I never could get the es below 40 fps. That IMR-4831 always seems to shoot 3427 with many many duplicate velocities gun) Also testing CCI BR2 primers, CCI 250 vs Fed 210 and 215 primers, the accuracy and ES improved greatly with the CCI BR2's. Now if you can just get those WLR primers to stay tight in your brass oh baby =) Send me a private message with your email address and I will send you my info and some other emails from a very knowledgable shooter.

Also I encourage everyone to read this article, I know it is for the 284, but all of the reloading info carries over to any cartridge. It's a long read but it contains a ton of valuable information that may clear up a few things. This is the shooter I have got some loading info from. http://home.earthlink.net/~rfrailey/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/284loaddata.pdf

 

[BillR]

Thanks for sending the info.

 

[41mag]

This is not intended to distract from the post, simply and hopefully to remind someone else who reads it, that you might hit some pressure issues WELL before getting to these loads in your own rifle. Please use the data presented here with a bit of caution.

While I have enjoyed reading through this post, some of the velocities are pushing the upper limits of pressure big time. I cannot deny that one rifle separate of another will have faster or slower velocities, but with some of these loads, things can get screwy fast.

I have shot both of these rounds and I agree that with a simple re-chamber from the standard to the AI version your only going to get, with equal pressures, a modest increase in velocity. However this said you will have to add powder to equal the pressures, and with the different chamber reamers, barrel twist, grove numbers and such and so fourth, you can see a tad more increase in standard length and a bit more in additional lenght barrels.

With my factory Remington 25-06, using moly coated 115gr Partitions I could get up to around 3250 pushing the envelope using RL-22, but this load suffered in accuracy. Dropping it down to 3150fps, not only got the accuracy but the ES was generally less than 10fps on a ten shot string. Granted with the RL powders you have to watch for differing lots, and as such I purchased several cans of the same lot.

With the newer AI version I have gotten about 200fps more using Lapua cases before seeing a sticky bolt. The AI version is a bit different however as it has a 28" 1-9 twist 5C barrel on it. It will however drive a 130gr bullet 150fps faster than the standard will do a 120gr, at around 3250fps which is what I was looking for with this rifle.

I wish you all the best with your build. It sounds like your really looking things over well. I also would suggest you look into the canted land barrels offered by several folks as well. They are very nice to bullets and in standard twist are reportedly a bit faster than the standard rifled versions. I can say that mine is a dream to clean, generally takes 10 or so strokes with the bronze brush, and about 10 patches start to finish. I haven't even gotten it completely broken in just yet.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

This has been a great thread so far and more than I expected in the way of valuble info. Thanks a lot to all who have contributed.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

This is not intended to distract from the post, simply and hopefully to remind someone else who reads it, that you might hit some pressure issues WELL before getting to these loads in your own rifle. Please use the data presented here with a bit of caution.

While I have enjoyed reading through this post, some of the velocities are pushing the upper limits of pressure big time. I cannot deny that one rifle separate of another will have faster or slower velocities, but with some of these loads, things can get screwy fast.

I have shot both of these rounds and I agree that with a simple re-chamber from the standard to the AI version your only going to get, with equal pressures, a modest increase in velocity. However this said you will have to add powder to equal the pressures, and with the different chamber reamers, barrel twist, grove numbers and such and so fourth, you can see a tad more increase in standard length and a bit more in additional lenght barrels.

With my factory Remington 25-06, using moly coated 115gr Partitions I could get up to around 3250 pushing the envelope using RL-22, but this load suffered in accuracy. Dropping it down to 3150fps, not only got the accuracy but the ES was generally less than 10fps on a ten shot string. Granted with the RL powders you have to watch for differing lots, and as such I purchased several cans of the same lot.

With the newer AI version I have gotten about 200fps more using Lapua cases before seeing a sticky bolt. The AI version is a bit different however as it has a 28" 1-9 twist 5C barrel on it. It will however drive a 130gr bullet 150fps faster than the standard will do a 120gr, at around 3250fps which is what I was looking for with this rifle.

I wish you all the best with your build. It sounds like your really looking things over well. I also would suggest you look into the canted land barrels offered by several folks as well. They are very nice to bullets and in standard twist are reportedly a bit faster than the standard rifled versions. I can say that mine is a dream to clean, generally takes 10 or so strokes with the bronze brush, and about 10 patches start to finish. I haven't even gotten it completely broken in just yet.

Thanks for the post Mike. A lot of good info there. You are driving a 130 gr bullet 150 faster out of the AI than a 120 gr bullet out of the standard? That sounds like a big step up in performnce. Are the barrels differnt lengths? And to show my ignorance, I didn't know a 130 gr bullet existed in a 25 cal? What barrel makers are making the canted lands barrels?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[elkaholic]

Thanks for the post Mike. A lot of good info there. You are driving a 130 gr bullet 150 faster out of the AI than a 120 gr bullet out of the standard? That sounds like a big step up in performnce. Are the barrels differnt lengths? And to show my ignorance, I didn't know a 130 gr bullet existed in a 25 cal? What barrel makers are making the canted lands barrels?

Thanks,

Mark

Hi Mark! Broughton, Bartlein, and I think Krieger is coming out with one as well. Not sure who else. I have a 5r Bartlein on the way. Lonnie Hummel at Hornady also says they are a breeze to clean.......Rich
P.S. The Sherman case should increase the velocity about 100 feet over his A.I.

 

[killahog]

Shilen is making a 3 grove rachet barrel that I have used for years and I cannot seem to foul it no matter how many shots I shoot thru it. If anyone at the stage where the are ready to build a good place to start is by googling theshooterscorner Bob white has a tight neck reamer for the 25-06AI and is a trustworthy person to deal with.

 

[41mag]

Thanks for the post Mike. A lot of good info there. You are driving a 130 gr bullet 150 faster out of the AI than a 120 gr bullet out of the standard? That sounds like a big step up in performnce. Are the barrels differnt lengths? And to show my ignorance, I didn't know a 130 gr bullet existed in a 25 cal? What barrel makers are making the canted lands barrels?

Thanks,

Mark

What limited test I managed to get done with mine yes the velocities were higher using the 130 in AI verses what I could get in my standard using the Speer 120. Yes the barrel lengths are 24 for the standard and 28 for the AI. Now here is the kicker on the loads, I shot the exact same one through both rifles, as I had some already loaded up for the standard 25. The new barrel is a 1-9 twist and being a bit faster upped the pressure on the load. I didn't mess with it much more than to shoot a few groups just to see how it was going to handle them, but enough to know I can easily beat what I saw by using a slower powder.

Like I mention different lenght barrels slower powders, different twist chambers and such can all add up to one being higher or slower than what folks might expect. That's why I added the note about watching for pressures above. Most factory barrels are 24" or even 22" on some, while a couple have been 26", and most in 1-10 twist. I had access to some 130gr Wildcat bullets a while back when the original owner was up and running so I grabbed some up. Wishing now I had grabbed more. He also made a 142gr as well, which I had hoped might stabilize in my 1-9 twist. No dice though it is simply WAY too long.

As for the makers, they have been posted and all make high quality barrels. Some however have more options on twist, length, and contour, than others for a halfway reasonable price. It all just depends on what the user wants in a finished rifle.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Hi Mark! Broughton, Bartlein, and I think Krieger is coming out with one as well. Not sure who else. I have a 5r Bartlein on the way. Lonnie Hummel at Hornady also says they are a breeze to clean.......Rich
P.S. The Sherman case should increase the velocity about 100 feet over his A.I.

Rich, thanks for the info. I'll take a hard look at those barrels. What's the diff between a 5R and a 5C barrel?

That Sherman is a good looking case, but I think if I go for that much case I'll probably go the WSM route. Right now I'm thinking I just want the "good ole" 25-06 and what it can give me, and with my experience with RL17, that's quite a bit. Also been toying around with the idea of a 25-284 Norma It never stops

Thanks,

Mark

 

[MontanaRifleman]

What limited test I managed to get done with mine yes the velocities were higher using the 130 in AI verses what I could get in my standard using the Speer 120. Yes the barrel lengths are 24 for the standard and 28 for the AI. Now here is the kicker on the loads, I shot the exact same one through both rifles, as I had some already loaded up for the standard 25. The new barrel is a 1-9 twist and being a bit faster upped the pressure on the load. I didn't mess with it much more than to shoot a few groups just to see how it was going to handle them, but enough to know I can easily beat what I saw by using a slower powder.

Like I mention different lenght barrels slower powders, different twist chambers and such can all add up to one being higher or slower than what folks might expect. That's why I added the note about watching for pressures above. Most factory barrels are 24" or even 22" on some, while a couple have been 26", and most in 1-10 twist. I had access to some 130gr Wildcat bullets a while back when the original owner was up and running so I grabbed some up. Wishing now I had grabbed more. He also made a 142gr as well, which I had hoped might stabilize in my 1-9 twist. No dice though it is simply WAY too long.

As for the makers, they have been posted and all make high quality barrels. Some however have more options on twist, length, and contour, than others for a halfway reasonable price. It all just depends on what the user wants in a finished rifle.

Mike, thanks again. 4" in barrel lenght would help a lot. I'm hoping GS will come out with a 25 cal, low wieght, high velocity, high BC bullet soon. If they do,it should be a real screamer in the 25-06 and others.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[Nitroused383]

I agree please use caution with different loads in your rifles. What is safe in my rifle may not be safe in your rifle, please start below max listed loads. I am shooting a savage I built using a 26" 1-10 twist 6 groove shilen. It has taken me a lot of time to find the best load possible using the 115 gr VLD's, but I built this gun to practice and have fun with. You should see what 85 grain nosler ballistic tip does to a coyotoe going 3900-4000 fps. I have emailed Hornady to build a 120 grain Amax, I think everyone should email them and tell them to crank them out!

 

[Bulseyetom]

I have two standard 25-06's. One is a Browning 78 with a 26" barrel and the other is a Mark V Weatherby Ultralight with a 24" barrel. My bullet of choice the last few years has been the 110 Accubond behind a stout load of RE-25. Case life is short as the primer pockets open up, but real accuracy only occurs with a heavy load as I get vertical stringing with less. I have no idea as to the velocity but at 58.5 grains it must be doing pretty good. The Browning really likes that load and now I am trying to find one as accurate for the Weatherby. It seems like 55.0 grains of RE-17 is also very hot but I have several pounds and was going to try some. I think I better start at 52.0 and work up. What charge did you start seeing pressure signs with RE-17? The Weatherby really likes 100 grain bullets with H4350 but the groups opened up quite a bit with RE-17. My 6x47 groups well with both RE-17 and H4350. I am hoping to find a super accurate load that works in both rifles but so far a load that shoots 3/4 moa in one shoots 1 1/2 moa in the other with the Browning the more accurate about 75% of the time but some loads are killer in the Weatherby. After reading the linked article about the 284 Winchester, I can see that I have a long way to go! Tom gun)

 

[Nomosendero]

I have two standard 25-06's. One is a Browning 78 with a 26" barrel and the other is a Mark V Weatherby Ultralight with a 24" barrel. My bullet of choice the last few years has been the 110 Accubond behind a stout load of RE-25. Case life is short as the primer pockets open up, but real accuracy only occurs with a heavy load as I get vertical stringing with less. I have no idea as to the velocity but at 58.5 grains it must be doing pretty good. The Browning really likes that load and now I am trying to find one as accurate for the Weatherby. It seems like 55.0 grains of RE-17 is also very hot but I have several pounds and was going to try some. I think I better start at 52.0 and work up. What charge did you start seeing pressure signs with RE-17? The Weatherby really likes 100 grain bullets with H4350 but the groups opened up quite a bit with RE-17. My 6x47 groups well with both RE-17 and H4350. I am hoping to find a super accurate load that works in both rifles but so far a load that shoots 3/4 moa in one shoots 1 1/2 moa in the other with the Browning the more accurate about 75% of the time but some loads are killer in the Weatherby. After reading the linked article about the 284 Winchester, I can see that I have a long way to go! Tom gun)

Yes, your 58.5 RL25 load should be doing good. I oldest son has a std. 25-06 Sendero & I load 59.5 gr. of RL 25, CCI250pr & 115BT for just over 3200 to give you an idea.

 

[elkaholic]

Rich, thanks for the info. I'll take a hard look at those barrels. What's the diff between a 5R and a 5C barrel?

That Sherman is a good looking case, but I think if I go for that much case I'll probably go the WSM route. Right now I'm thinking I just want the "good ole" 25-06 and what it can give me, and with my experience with RL17, that's quite a bit. Also been toying around with the idea of a 25-284 Norma It never stops

Thanks,

Mark

I'm pretty sure the 5r and 5c are both trapezoidal lands, just different manufacturers??