210 Nolser ALR. 1st BC test

[Michael Eichele]

I'm not going to get into my methods of testing BCs. I really hate to be that way but some of you guys here make these monsters. "You didn't do this right, how do you know you did that right?" "Are you an engineer? yadayadayada and I'm not in the mood to hear it. Around here it seems like you need a physics degree and 100,000 dollars worth of the highest grade of technological equipment known to the aerospace industry.

Now that I'm done with my soapbox, all I will say is that after a very tedious and thorough test (albeit this is still a work in progress) I think it is safe to say that these have a BC of roughly 4-1/2% less than that of the 208 AMAX.

Before any of you throw any flame, get out there and prove me wrong unless you already have.

Regardless, I know that just looking at these it is pretty obvious that these are no where near the .73 that Nosler claims. At least not in the real world. Between a couple of other experimenter's results and today's evaluation, I think it could be considered a fact at this point that they are much closer to the 210 Berger and 208 AMAX than .73 and most likely, lower than these. I realize that this was only one test and more is needed for the most accurate numbers, but I am confident this test is really close.

While it is a bit disappointing as I was hoping for at least a BC equal to the 208, maybe a bit better but I still think that this is a big step in the right direction. IF they do open and expand reliably at or below 1500'sec, AND hold up well on bone impact on larger game such as elk, then it is a HUGE step in the right direction.

M

 

[ZSteinle]

I think most expected that noslers claims were a little high. All I can say is a hunting bullet with near to the same bc as an amax makes me a happy man! I had an email conversation with hornady about a year ago about making a bonded amax and they said that they had no plans of ever making such a bullet. I bet they will be rethinking the idea.

 

[azgutpile]

Well that is disappointing.
What have you found as your corrected BC. for the 210 Berger and or 208 A-Max?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Not surprising to me as you already know. What velocity range did you test the BC (G1 I'm assuming) ?

 

[Broz]

Michael, I trust your results with out debate. Thanks for saving me a lot of time and components. .602 is the number then huh?

How were the groups at distance and how far have you shot them?

Thanks
Jeff

 

[MMERSS]

I think it could be considered a fact at this point that they are much closer to the 210 Berger and 208 AMAX than .73 and most likely, lower than these.
M

Michael,

Thanks for the information and I agree. I didn't hold much validity in their advertised BC claims but hope the new line holds LR groups well. I will be developing the ALR for a 7 Mag as soon as the 175s come out. I should have solid results then.

 

[shedhead]

ok so we finaly have data also on them. we found the advertised bc to be high also we came up with .670. the grouping was outstanding we took to 300wm senderos to 1/4 moa in less than 2 hours at 2800 fps we shot them at a clay bank that we have tested mant bullets in and at 700 yrds they held 60-70% retinion berger is going to have a run for thier money even with the lower bc.

 

[Greyfox]

ok so we finaly have data also on them. we found the advertised bc to be high also we came up with .670. the grouping was outstanding we took to 300wm senderos to 1/4 moa in less than 2 hours at 2800 fps we shot them at a clay bank that we have tested mant bullets in and at 700 yrds they held 60-70% retinion berger is going to have a run for thier money even with the lower bc.

As much as I shoot and like the Bergers, their ability to hold up on thougher game has always been a question for me. While the killing effect has been excellent at ranges from 50 to 1000 yards on medium sized game, I have never found any bullet remains except for bits and pieces of lead and jacket material, if anything at all. Have you done the same test on your clay bank with the Bergers and gotten any retention info for comparison? Also interested in the sensitivity to seating depth of the AB's compared to the Bergers.

 

[stomp442]

Sorry to resurect an old thread but why do people insist on basing Berger performance on weight retention? They are designed to fragment and explode hence not much weight retention. If you kill an animal and find nothing but shreaded insides and little bullet fragments the bullet worked just like it was supposed to.

Sorry for the rant.

Now to the B.C. of the Nosler 210 ALR. I have not yet tested these but I have made a few observations and calculations. First off Nosler lists a G7 B.C. of .316 which is exactly what the B.C. should be, based on the standard G7 form factor. With that in mind Nosler then calculates a G1 B.C. of .730 which is entirely outlandish and false. According to Bryan Litz in his applied ballistics for long range shooting book on page 283 he states " In order to convert a G7 B.C. to a G1 B.C. that is an average 3000 fps to 1500 fps divide the G7 by .512." By doing this conversion we can calculate the G1 B.C. of the Nosler at .617. This is still a great B.C. and the Nosler Im sure will make a great long range bullet but not the long range bullet Nosler hyped it up to be. The .617 B.C. puts the Nosler around 10 points lower than both the Berger .210 (.627) and 16 lower than the 208 Hornady Amax (.633) (Litz tested B.C.s) The B.C. of .617 is much more belivable and realistic given the bullets similar design and form factors.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Sorry to resurect an old thread but why do people insist on basing Berger performance on weight retention? They are designed to fragment and explode hence not much weight retention. If you kill an animal and find nothing but shreaded insides and little bullet fragments the bullet worked just like it was supposed to.

Sorry for the rant.

Now to the B.C. of the Nosler 210 ALR. I have not yet tested these but I have made a few observations and calculations. First off Nosler lists a G7 B.C. of .316 which is exactly what the B.C. should be, based on the standard G7 form factor. With that in mind Nosler then calculates a G1 B.C. of .730 which is entirely outlandish and false. According to Bryan Litz in his applied ballistics for long range shooting book on page 283 he states " In order to convert a G7 B.C. to a G1 B.C. that is an average 3000 fps to 1500 fps divide the G7 by .512." By doing this conversion we can calculate the G1 B.C. of the Nosler at .617. This is still a great B.C. and the Nosler Im sure will make a great long range bullet but not the long range bullet Nosler hyped it up to be. The .617 B.C. puts the Nosler around 10 points lower than both the Berger .210 (.627) and 16 lower than the 208 Hornady Amax (.633) (Litz tested B.C.s) The B.C. of .617 is much more belivable and realistic given the bullets similar design and form factors.

The reason they (berger) get bashed for their explosive characteristics is because not everybody hunts coues whitetails. Some here hunt big moose and big bears. We don't need a bullet to fragment in a 1800# bear or moose. We need penetration.

Now if they would introduce a 140 class ALR for your beloved 260, I bet you'd use them.

 

[stomp442]

I bet I wouldn't. The berger gives me exactly what I like in a bullet and I wouldn't hesitate to hunt moose or bear with them at all. If you know you want a bullet that penetrates then why do people use a bullet designed to fragment then complain when it does exactly like its supposed to. It just baffles me to read all the complaints of poor performance because of little weight retention when the bullet is performing as designed.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Fair enough.

I won't push bonded on you, you don't push fragmented on me.

Now back to the ALR thread...


M

 

[Pdvdh]

That tit for tat was too easy. I was expecting way more. The dust has already settled on the fragmenting bullet debate. What a pleasant surprise.

Michael, thanks for posting your findings. Somehow I missed this Thread until tonight. You used any of the ABLR on large game this season? Good luck if you're still in the hunt!

 

[stomp442]

Me and Michael have our history of epic debates on other sites. We have determined that we are probably very similar individuals that just do things differently. I have no hard feelings or animosity towards the guy at all and respect his opinions. There is no secret that I love berger bullets and use them religiously. Sorry for the slight thread hijack I just needed to say something after reading multiple threads on this site.