170 EOL or Hammer Hunter for 6.8 Western?

[RedSnake]

Gathering components for a lightweight 6.8 Western with 1:8 twist for open country mule deer — shots could be 300 to 1000 yds with also possibility of elk.

I normally shoot Bergers: 168 VLDs in my 280ai and 215 Berger in my 30 Nos but have no experience with monos — the Hammer Hunters are really peaking my interest.

I should be able to reach 2950 with the 170 EOL and 3300 with 126 HH or 3000 with 156 HH.

What does the LRH brain trust recommend?

 

[adam32+P]

Hammer for under 500 then switch to the Berger for the longer ranges.

 

[codyadams]

I'll just throw up some applied ballistics numbers of the bullets you listed and you can go from there. This is at my home elevation, 6,000 ft. This is using Hammers advertised bc's, not the ones applied ballistics lists. Note energy and retained velocity at the bottom of the pics, and on the top one, dotted line represents velocity, solid line represents drop. All 100 yard zero. I'll also add in another to consider, the 140 SBDII from badlands precision.

For mule deer, we have used the 170 and had great performance. We have also killed a couple elk with them too, no complaints. They were going 2940 from a .270 Sherman, so nearly identical. We have also used the 140 SBDII with good performance as well. I may have been conservative at 3150 for it, I know we are getting way more than that from the same gun that shoots the 170 @2940, but even at less than it's capability, it will outrun the 170 EOL in most or all aspects ballistically, and being only 140 grains, would be a decent choice for a light build to keep recoil low. I think any of these bullets will give great mule deer performance, and I even added 50 fps to the 156, cuz if you get 2950 with a 170 eol, I would bet you would get more than 3000 with the 156, and likely higher than 3050. For shooting out to 1000.....I would look at the ones with the least wind deflection and most retained velocity @ 1000 personally. I live and hunt in wyoming as well, our average mulie is 500-600, with 800-900 being common. Just make sure you get the right twist for your choice, I would go 8, maybe 7.5

 

[RedSnake]

Thanks for the info. I've run the numbers in my Shooter app but it's helpful to see the curves superimposed. The SBDII numbers look impressive.

 

[WildRose]

Gathering components for a lightweight 6.8 Western with 1:8 twist for open country mule deer — shots could be 300 to 1000 yds with also possibility of elk.

I normally shoot Bergers: 168 VLDs in my 280ai and 215 Berger in my 30 Nos but have no experience with monos — the Hammer Hunters are really peaking my interest.

I should be able to reach 2950 with the 170 EOL and 3300 with 126 HH or 3000 with 156 HH.

What does the LRH brain trust recommend?

If I had to choose between the two I'd definitely go with the Hammers. I've just had too many poor experiences with the Berger's either failing to penetrate at all or penciling through.

With all the handheld ballistic resources available today the difference in BC to me is negligible. Just dial up and shoot.

 

[codyadams]

If I had to choose between the two I'd definitely go with the Hammers. I've just had too many poor experiences with the Berger's either failing to penetrate at all or penciling through.

With all the handheld ballistic resources available today the difference in BC to me is negligible. Just dial up and shoot.

Drop isn't the issue, if that was the only consideration we all would be shooting light bullets really fast. Over 20" more wind drift at his top end range with one bullet over another is not negligible and should be considered, also one bullet not making the minimum velocity needed for proper expansion according to the manufacturer, and the other barely making the minimum, is another consideration. These things must be looked at prior to choosing a bullet. If your only shooting 500-600 yards, then it's not as important, and many bullets would be adequate and not much different ballistically, but only terminally. Over that it starts to matter more and more.

 

[codyadams]

Thanks for the info. I've run the numbers in my Shooter app but it's helpful to see the curves superimposed. The SBDII numbers look impressive.

To my knowledge they are the highest bc/weight hunting bullet we have come across for the .277 bore. We took a couple deer, several pronghorn and an elk with them this year, and they worked very well, we never recovered a bullet, and they appeared to leave very good wound channels.

I will say, we didn't get any low velocity impacts with these this year, the farthest shot was around 550 and impact was about 2450, it was shot from a 19" barrel starting at 3030. But even at 1000 from a 6.8 western, it looks like it would be close to 2100 fps retained velocity.

Maybe this next year we will see some farther range impacts, and have a better idea of 600-1000 yard on game performance.

 

[RedSnake]

I was wondering about one bullet vs another in terms of terminal performance on mule deer across a 300-1000 yd range.

Will be hunting muleys on a 20,000 ranch outside of Clayton NM that occasionally holds 320" elk. Ideally would have a bullet that would serve dual purpose in case I kick up an elk.

I do have a 12 lb 30 Nosler and also a 338 Sherm that I can take in the truck in the event we see elk at distance but those aren't fun to tote when walking miles and miles.

 

[codyadams]

Hammers generally have great reviews as far as terminal performance, I haven't seen many negative reviews of them. I have seen lots of bad about Bergers, though personally we have taken over 80 pronghorn (mostly), mule deer and elk with them and never had a failure. It may be that most of our game in that number is very light pronghorn does, or that the closest mule deer/elk we have taken with them was still over 400 yards and mostly 500+, or that we always use a wire drill to clean the tips out, or we always use the proper twist rate and then some, or maybe we have just been lucky, I don't know, but they have worked for us so far.

We killed probably around 20 critters with the .277 170 specifically, from 300 yard pronghorn to a 940 yard elk, (also had a 70 yard pronghorn, but that was a neck/head shot, so doesn't really count for terminal performance) and it performed the same as our other Bergers. On the elk, we weren't consistently getting exits, but we never seemed to need them, they died within sight of where they were hit.

However we switched to the 140 SBDII because it gave as good/better ballistics than the 170, and we were hoping to always see exits and hopefully as good or better terminal performance on game. So far, that is what we have seen. It is a very small test pool though.

Personally, of your choices, I would just cut out the 126, it won't be sufficient at 1000 due to low velocity and energy, not to mention a ton of wind drift. The 170 and 156 do make minimums, and the 156 isn't a huge amount of wind behind the 170, about .75 MOA, if the Hammer listed bc's hold up in your rifle. Either would be sufficient.

 

[RedSnake]

Thx again for the feedback.

I've had a lot of success over the years with Bergers in 280ai and 30 Nosler. Only one failure on a big axis buck at 350 yds with a 168 vld that blew up on the shoulder. Knocked it down in its tracks and 5 min later it got up and hobbled off. Found it later and bullet hadn't penetrated —looks like it had hit bone and never made it into chest cavity.

 

[WildRose]

Drop isn't the issue, if that was the only consideration we all would be shooting light bullets really fast. Over 20" more wind drift at his top end range with one bullet over another is not negligible and should be considered, also one bullet not making the minimum velocity needed for proper expansion according to the manufacturer, and the other barely making the minimum, is another consideration. These things must be looked at prior to choosing a bullet. If your only shooting 500-600 yards, then it's not as important, and many bullets would be adequate and not much different ballistically, but only terminally. Over that it starts to matter more and more.

With the handheld ballistic resources at our disposal, both are negligible.

Dope, dial, shoot.

 

[WildRose]

I was wondering about one bullet vs another in terms of terminal performance on mule deer across a 300-1000 yd range.

Will be hunting muleys on a 20,000 ranch outside of Clayton NM that occasionally holds 320" elk. Ideally would have a bullet that would serve dual purpose in case I kick up an elk.

I do have a 12 lb 30 Nosler and also a 338 Sherm that I can take in the truck in the event we see elk at distance but those aren't fun to tote when walking miles and miles.

If you want consistency and predictability your best options are a bonded bullet or mono designed to give positive expansion.

The Nosler ABLR is among the best cup/core bullets for consistency and predictability with the Accubond a very close second. The Accubond is a tougher bullet that will perform better punching through hard bone and bigger critters, the ABLR better for a behind the shoulder shot or neck shot at either extreme.

Shooting the mono's however gives even more predictability and consistency than anything else but you do have to think before you pull the trigger about just exactly what the bullet you've chosen is designed to do and adjust your POA accordingly.

 

[codyadams]

With the handheld ballistic resources at our disposal, both are negligible.

Dope, dial, shoot.

Sorry, but that simply isn't correct. If people could perfectly judge the wind down to the mph every time then it would be. But that simply isn't the case. Less wind drift gives more room for human error. For range, a rangefinder gives you exact numbers to be accounted for. As of yet there is not a handheld device that hunters have at their disposal that tells you what the wind is doing between you and your target, so that is up to human judgment, or guessing.

Sorry to the op, I will move on and stop cluttering up your thread. Good luck with your choice!

 

[WildRose]

Sorry, but that simply isn't correct. If people could perfectly judge the wind down to the mph every time then it would be. But that simply isn't the case. Less wind drift gives more room for human error. For range, a rangefinder gives you exact numbers to be accounted for. As of yet there is not a handheld device that hunters have at their disposal that tells you what the wind is doing between you and your target, so that is up to human judgment, or guessing.

Sorry to the op, I will move on and stop cluttering up your thread. Good luck with your choice!

If you have accurate dope including wind data it's just not an issue at ranges 99.999% of people are shooting at game.