130 vs 150 range day

Tactical45

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Was at the range yesterday, the plan was to zero in two different rifles, a LR308 that I built, and a Winchester Model 70 in .270. Both rifles have new scopes on them. Also to see what the .270 likes more, the 130 or 150gr ammo.

This post will be dealing with the .270. I started out with my hand loads of 150, didn't take much to zero in once we found where they were originally landing. Opened a brand new box of Remington 130sp, they were more than 12" off. I have never seen that big of variance before. I went back to my 150's just to see if anything had moved on my rail. No issues, rounds tracked right back to last shots of 150. Even had my brother shoot in the same order, same thing. At this point I was at a loss, I've never seen that much of a difference before from the same rifle, same session, same conditions. I just left it alone with the 150's until I have a better understanding of why this is happening.

So, I went about zeroing the LR using my hand loads that I have been loading for it since I built it. Groups were good, had my brother try it, all of his shots were sub zero as expected (actually they were all touching, 1/4" center to center) that is how this shoots normally. He did not re-zero to him, just went off of my zero.

I should add, that when I was in AFG back in '13 I took some indirect fire, so now I have one fake shoulder, the other needs it, been putting it off until I can't take the pain anymore like the left one. That is why I left the range instead of zeroing the .270 with 130 to see which grain grouped better. The 150 I am happy with at 100yds, would have liked to seen how the 130 did at the same distance, and then push them both out to 200yds so I have some data to work from.

My LR with FGMM 168's groups well. That is what just about everyone suggested I go with. I had some of my loads that I put together for a AICS chassis in .308 that I built, and the LR loves the 175SMK's. I've had similar results with other rifles that I have loaded for, but, this 130 vs 150 I have never seen before.

Anyone have any ideas of why the big difference in POI's?
 

LVJ76

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Was at the range yesterday, the plan was to zero in two different rifles, a LR308 that I built, and a Winchester Model 70 in .270. Both rifles have new scopes on them. Also to see what the .270 likes more, the 130 or 150gr ammo.

This post will be dealing with the .270. I started out with my hand loads of 150, didn't take much to zero in once we found where they were originally landing. Opened a brand new box of Remington 130sp, they were more than 12" off. I have never seen that big of variance before. I went back to my 150's just to see if anything had moved on my rail. No issues, rounds tracked right back to last shots of 150. Even had my brother shoot in the same order, same thing. At this point I was at a loss, I've never seen that much of a difference before from the same rifle, same session, same conditions. I just left it alone with the 150's until I have a better understanding of why this is happening.

So, I went about zeroing the LR using my hand loads that I have been loading for it since I built it. Groups were good, had my brother try it, all of his shots were sub zero as expected (actually they were all touching, 1/4" center to center) that is how this shoots normally. He did not re-zero to him, just went off of my zero.

I should add, that when I was in AFG back in '13 I took some indirect fire, so now I have one fake shoulder, the other needs it, been putting it off until I can't take the pain anymore like the left one. That is why I left the range instead of zeroing the .270 with 130 to see which grain grouped better. The 150 I am happy with at 100yds, would have liked to seen how the 130 did at the same distance, and then push them both out to 200yds so I have some data to work from.

My LR with FGMM 168's groups well. That is what just about everyone suggested I go with. I had some of my loads that I put together for a AICS chassis in .308 that I built, and the LR loves the 175SMK's. I've had similar results with other rifles that I have loaded for, but, this 130 vs 150 I have never seen before.

Anyone have any ideas of why the big difference in POI's?

Were both bullets fired the same brand and type or different bullets?
 

Alibiiv

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Was at the range yesterday, the plan was to zero in two different rifles, a LR308 that I built, and a Winchester Model 70 in .270. Both rifles have new scopes on them. Also to see what the .270 likes more, the 130 or 150gr ammo.

This post will be dealing with the .270. I started out with my hand loads of 150, didn't take much to zero in once we found where they were originally landing. Opened a brand new box of Remington 130sp, they were more than 12" off. I have never seen that big of variance before. I went back to my 150's just to see if anything had moved on my rail. No issues, rounds tracked right back to last shots of 150. Even had my brother shoot in the same order, same thing. At this point I was at a loss, I've never seen that much of a difference before from the same rifle, same session, same conditions. I just left it alone with the 150's until I have a better understanding of why this is happening.

So, I went about zeroing the LR using my hand loads that I have been loading for it since I built it. Groups were good, had my brother try it, all of his shots were sub zero as expected (actually they were all touching, 1/4" center to center) that is how this shoots normally. He did not re-zero to him, just went off of my zero.

I should add, that when I was in AFG back in '13 I took some indirect fire, so now I have one fake shoulder, the other needs it, been putting it off until I can't take the pain anymore like the left one. That is why I left the range instead of zeroing the .270 with 130 to see which grain grouped better. The 150 I am happy with at 100yds, would have liked to seen how the 130 did at the same distance, and then push them both out to 200yds so I have some data to work from.

My LR with FGMM 168's groups well. That is what just about everyone suggested I go with. I had some of my loads that I put together for a AICS chassis in .308 that I built, and the LR loves the 175SMK's. I've had similar results with other rifles that I have loaded for, but, this 130 vs 150 I have never seen before.

Anyone have any ideas of why the big difference in POI's?

Curious what you mean by "12 inches off"? Are you talking 12 inches low, or 12 inches somewhere else on the paper? From what I read in your OP you built the rifle, how many rounds through the barrel, what is the make and the twist of the barrel? And... as always I suggest to start back at the basics. Check the torque of everything on the rifle, from the receiver, to the scope base/s to the scope rings. If possible swap out the scope. I have a Ruger 77 in 35 Whelen, it will shoot better than I can shoot it. I had an incident where the rifle shot well, and then the shots would start to move, but not on every three shot string. The first time that this happened I could not figure out what I was doing wrong, then found out that what I was doing wrong was not checking the torque on the rings where they attached to the integral scope base. I also had an incident of scope ring issues while helping a friend sight in his model 70 in .270 WSM. The guy was sighting his rifle in, getting ready for an antelope/mule deer hunt in Wyoming; once in a lifetime hunt for him. He would fire his rifle, get good groups and then with the next round of shots they would move 3-4 inches from point of aim. This went on for quite a few rounds. He is an excellent shot and after a while I could see this wearing on him. I told him that perhaps he was having a bad day and maybe we ought to wrap up and come back the following day. He said he wanted to figure out what was going on with his rifle. I thought that the problem with his rifle was him and decided to watch what he was doing while setting up for his shots and watched what he was doing very closely. Upon the shot I noticed that his scope moved when he fired. We checked the torque on the scope rings and they were tight, but.... I knew the scope moved because I saw it move. Upon shaking the scope we found that the rear Weaver scope ring had actually cracked. Also.... haven't heard too many good reviews on Remington ammo either. I have a couple of .270 AI that both shoot well, and have had a few other .270s that always shot equally as well. Hope this helps out for you.
 

73driver

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You will get different point of impact with different ammo. But why a foot off? I will venture the theory that something in the rifle reacted to the different harmonics generated by the different ammo. Things like bedding, action screw torque, how free floated the barrel is and how precise the surface machining between the receiver and barrel mating surfaces.
 

LVJ76

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You will get different point of impact with different ammo. But why a foot off? I will venture the theory that something in the rifle reacted to the different harmonics generated by the different ammo. Things like bedding, action screw torque, how free floated the barrel is and how precise the surface machining between the receiver and barrel mating surfaces.

In addition to barrel harmonics bullets with different weights have different bearing surfaces which also create different points of impact. An example I've given before in similar threads is that my when I zero my hunting 7mm-08 with the 139gr SST and then shoot a 120gr Ballistic Tip it impacts if I remember correctly 6" or 7" to the left every time. From this same zero the Berger 168gr Classic Hunters impact 7" High and 4" to the right.

That said 12" is a lot.
 
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Alibiiv

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You will get different point of impact with different ammo. But why a foot off? I will venture the theory that something in the rifle reacted to the different harmonics generated by the different ammo. Things like bedding, action screw torque, how free floated the barrel is and how precise the surface machining between the receiver and barrel mating surfaces.

I totally agree with what you have written here. Even with anything described here, 12 inches seems impossible to get without noticing "something"!
 

SteveBurton

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Couple of questions
1)What distance were you shooting to? It looks like 100 yards but want to verify.
2)What velocity are the 150s running vs the 130s?
3)Where were the 130s grouping in relation to the 150s? High/Low/Left/Right
4)Where the 130s grouping well but just in a different spot than the 150s?

I have had different factory rounds group 8" away from each other so 12" seems a bit much at 100 yards but I wouldn't dismiss it as normal.
 

Tactical45

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I'll try to respond to all of those who took time to help out....

I use both 130 and 150 Nosler Partition in my 270win. I've found best results with 130s using H4813sc and 150s using IMR4831.
I use H4813sc for 150's for now, and I have been loading the partitions as well.


Curious what you mean by "12 inches off"?
High right, about 1:30-2:00 Everything is factory barrel and trigger. I set the trigger down 4.8#'s with a mcarbo spring, and will take it even lower this weekend, I will get it at 3#'s or less. I like a wide trigger, even on my Remingtons I've custom built. A narrow trigger feels "heavier" because it's narrower to me. Besides, the design of the stock trigger is pretty great to start out with, simple, and works every time. Every thing is still torqued as I set them.

You will get different point of impact with different ammo. But why a foot off?
Brother, if I knew, I would be a pretty happy camper right now. LOL

That said 12" is a lot.
Tracking...

I totally agree with what you have written here. Even with anything described here, 12 inches seems impossible to get without noticing "something"!
As stated, I shot it, my brother shot it. We watched each other. Even the range master came down, I've known him for about 10 years now. No one seen anything, other than my brother thought I was canting the rifle, which is true to a certain extent. Like I said, after I took the hit in AFG, I can't seem to shoulder my rifle like I used to. So, I make adjustments. With that said, everything else I shoot drops right on target as should.


Couple of questions
1)What distance were you shooting to? It looks like 100 yards but want to verify.
Yes, 100 until I zero there, then move down range.
2)What velocity are the 150s running vs the 130s?
Unsure at this time, not enough data to worry about dialing in yet.
3)Where were the 130s grouping in relation to the 150s? High/Low/Left/Right
High right
4)Where the 130s grouping well but just in a different spot than the 150s?
Don't know, they were off the target completely, and hitting the dirt berm. If my shoulder would have taken it, I would have taken the time to bring the 130's on target to see how they are grouping. Next time I'll see.

I have had different factory rounds group 8" away from each other so 12" seems a bit much at 100 yards but I wouldn't dismiss it as normal.
I could see them being 1-4" spread at 100yds but not much more.

Thank you all once again for the input and ideas. I'm going to load more 150's, and then load a box of 130's in a similar fasion as the 150's and see what happens. I recently was able to purchase some 130 and 150 bullets from a member here. They both are all Nosler Accubond Polymer tip. Then I have a few 130 SST's I might throw in for a offset I got from a different forum.
 

jlynch34

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I used H4831 for years in my 270win and only shooting 130gr bullets (Nosler Partition and AB). Then I started Moose hunting and loading 150 Nosler Partition, I had some IMR4831 and gave it a try on the 150's and I get much better groups than with it the H4831sc. Of course that's in my Tikka Lite you may find different results in your gun.
 

MagnumManiac

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There is no mystery here....guns often shoot to a way different POI with different types/weights of bullet.
I have heard people say that a heavier bullet ALWAYS hit LOWER than a LIGHTER bullet, sometimes it does, other times it doesn’t.
A barrel oscillates as a bullet travels down it, depending on how much oscillation is occurring transpires into where the POI is going to be. This may be in ANY direction, up, down, right or left or a combination of these.

Cheers.
 

xsn10s

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I'm wondering if your 150 PT powder charge is. My thinking is they are a light load. Just wondering/ thinking out loud.
 
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