12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH;585HE/700HE, other Big Bores--

[Backstrap Bandit]

If I wanted to build a heavy lead pitcher like these. Would the old bolt action shotguns from Marlin, Stevens, Mossberg ect be any good for modifying? They are readily available around here for pretty cheap.
This is a hypothetical project as I'm currently on gun buying lock down...
But for the new guys to this type of thing, where should we look for service and supplies?
Thanks for taking the time to post all of this. It must be a big job but it is appreciated!gun)
BB

 

[hubel458]

Only bolt action ones I'd use besides Savage 210/212
is Mossy 395,495,595,695 and Marlin Goose guns, for strength
but the Marlin's port can't be opened up for long cases.
T he mossys listed can be opened up.
Other older bolts can't be opened up and are
not the strongest. That is why sometimes
is is easier to get NEF Ultra 12ga.Ed.

 

[Backstrap Bandit]

I had a really nice Marlin 55 Goose gun with the 36 inch barrel in my hands but didn't buy it. I probably will because it was great! I usually stray from .12 ga. but I really dig this model gun. I missed the chance on 2 of them for cheap some years ago and have thought about them since. I really want to put some sort of long eye relief scope mount on it, like a scout rifle. It would be ridiculously cool looking..and hopefully shoot sweet. gun)
I have a Savage 220F. A heavy rifled barrel and black walnut stock on that action wouldn't hurt my feelings! Not that it hurts my feelings as is. The 1st thing I thought when I got it was that a heavy barrel would make good sense.
Are any of the .600 nitro express components useful in considering loading for a heavy .20ga? lightbulb
I may have an "African big game hunter" complex. lol! I'll never make it there, but I'm sure there's something I can hunt around here to justify the need for a big bore. Like bears...or Orange barrels..
Bow season starts Monday, This is a "future project"
All be safe
BB

 

[hubel458]

Using 600NE cases in 20ga chambers ,you have lot of case mouth
expansion due to chamber being bigger at the mouth for thick 20ga cases.
You can get 20ga RMC cases that fit chambers for half of
600NE cases. 600NE slugs can be used. plus 58cal slugs in wadcups,
and you can cast 20 ga for fraction og 600NE bullets.

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
if your interested contact me.

We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.

Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
to show all the uses the case has.

I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed

 

[hubel458]

I found pictures of a factory 12ga over under that
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with screw
in chokes. Will have pics few days. Don't know
how heavy barrel is yet.

Also will have pictures and test of brass 585HE sent
here. They are 585HE case samples from the first big
run of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar
It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.

Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE
cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first
shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

This case can be used in different style guns.,
Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here
is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,
we just got done.

I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,
etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real
tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
they don't need a special holder.

In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.
He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime
we get money built up for an order..Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.

Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
And one 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220
20ga, with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets
measured about 2 inches. Four shots in two inches.Ed

 

[Backstrap Bandit]

Happy Thanksgiving!
Fantastic guns! The latest BPI catalog arrived recently and has me really wanting to load for my 220. The loads/components you've shown have been a big help. Seeing the .58cal. bullets in the Commander wads made the lights come onlightbulb! For a loader I'd like one of the old Lee Classic kits in .20ga that you use a small mallet with. I Could use it to build loads right at the range. That would save on time driving back and forth. The only re-loading experience I have is with one of these in 30-06 and found it very efficient.
Thanks again for all this great information!
BB

 

[hubel458]

Another good deal to use at the range if you want to size cases
back to better than factory, is a MEC Super Sizer. with 20ga collets in it.
You can put any gauge collets in same MEC. This sizer is so much better
than dies you force cases into, Just mount it on a piece of 2x8
couple ft long.

And the great reason I promote 58cal slugs, .575- 578" size, for 20ga
wads is, we will use them in the new 12ga accutip type of sabots
we are getting made soon, and I use in my 585HE long case. the .585"
ones, for target and lighter game and fun shooting with less recoil..
Kinda standardizing a variety of guns to use one diameter of
economical slugs... Ed

 

[hubel458]

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.

Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..

Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.

Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

 

[hubel458]

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough
to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.
Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..

Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
and the Magtech 199 shown above.

Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

 

[hubel458]

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.

I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
unneeded front of the sear and metal above it in the bottom, giving
room to the back, for cases that are 3.9" plus overall loaded length.

Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World put these together.

Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
like RE-17 which is much slower than shotgun powders. .
It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the rate of burn
deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
peak pressures down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE-33 the basecup only expanded .002".
And they are thinner basecup than some..Ed

 

[mindcrime]

Ed, I loved reading about you and Rob's exploits in the "Big Bore" section on AR, and now you are here! Been wanting to make a 8 Bore myself. GOSH! We only live once!

 

[Backstrap Bandit]

I have to agree, these are some awesome posts! All the information and pictures are greatly appreciated!