Ackley Improved Question

Sully2 said:

Buy the AI dies. I did!

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I've tried.....You won't sell them to me now. You decided to keep them and keep loading and forming for the .25-06 AI.....Remember?

Seriously, whenever you decide you get tired of forming and want to go .257 Wby, or something else, please let me know. I'll still buy all the brass and dies for the agreed-upon price we had before. Just please make sure it's after this month....This month hasn't been a good one. I've bought too many things I shouldn't have instead of saving my money. LOL

MudRunner2005 said:

Hate to revive an old thread, but this one piqued my curiosity, as I am building a .25-06 AI...

I read on page 1 that someone said you can buy standard .25-06 Rem neck-sizer dies, and just use them for your .25-06 AI once you've fireformed your brass into the AI chamber. Is this correct, or will I have to buy a $150 worth of dies?

It would make sense, because the .25-06 Rem, and the .25-06 Rem 40* Ackley Improved both have the same neck dimensions, b/c that's how PO Ackley designed it.

If so, that saved me about $120 towards buying new Norma brass...

Please can someone either confirm or deny that I can use standard RCBS Neck-Sizer .25-06 Remington dies for loading for my .25-06 Ackley Improved?

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I could be wrong, but I don't believe the improved shoulder will fit up inside a standard dimension die far enough to size the necks. The picture on page 1 of this thread illustrates that, at least it does in my mind.?

I've got 1/2 dozen Ackley rifles, if I were near the loading room I would try to see if the improved case will fit in a standard die...........But I am pretty sure it doesn't without swedging down the recently blown out shoulder. Let me know if you find out otherwise.

SBruce said:

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the improved shoulder will fit up inside a standard dimension die far enough to size the necks. The picture on page 1 of this thread illustrates that, at least it does in my mind.?

I've got 1/2 dozen Ackley rifles, if I were near the loading room I would try to see if the improved case will fit in a standard die...........But I am pretty sure it doesn't without swedging down the recently blown out shoulder. Let me know if you find out otherwise.

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I'll be watching the thread for your response, as I have no current Ackley calibers to test this for myself, or else I would have already given it a go. Reason I ask is that I'm in the middle of a build. All that's left is the funds for smith work...Then she will be completed! At that time I will need to have brass and dies readily available, as I have all the other major components on my bench.

The sizing die is the real issue for the fellow wanting to do a 25-06 Ackley improved chamber. But you have more than one option:

* you can order in a custom set of dies from Redding, Forster, or Lee, and be at their mercy for delivery.

* you can send thre to five once fired cases to Linwood Harrell, or Neil Jones (quite possible you best bet)

* you could also buy a Newlon die blank, and have your gunsmith chamber it, but you'll then need to have it hardened. I'm not all that sure about the hardening process for 12L*** series steels, so I won't go there. He also sells a stainless steel blank. Or you can cut a die from a piece of 4150 pretreat steel and simply nitride harden it (this is your best bet in my opinion). You'll see very little shrinkage, and if done right the finish will simply need a fine polish. The nitride process is very simple, and very hard.

The seater is easy. Just buy a 25-06 Forster seater, and run the chamber reamer thru it. Or better yet use the .257AI seater die spool ( they will sell you individual die parts). That's a lot cheaper than buy a generic seater in a semi custom die set.

Now for the three to five once fired cases, that part is also easy. If the chamber is cut right, all you need to do is to run some factory loads thru the rifle. Use round with heavy bullets (like 117 grain), or load your own. If you do the load your own process, try jamming the bullets into the lands a couple thousandths. I like others here, like to fire form with good stiff loads of fairly fast burning powder that develops a good amount of chamber pressure. Try 48 grains of AA4350, or even 49 grains. Their 4350 is slightly faster than the other 4350's, and will develop about 62K psi. Chambering a new 25-06 case, you should feel a slight resistance at the very bottom the bolt closing stroke.
This assures you that the case body is locked in place solidly. The bullet into the rifling just increases chamber pressure, and further helps with alignment of the loaded round in the chamber. I would expect about .035" of case shrinkage after forming. But it might be as high as .045" because your moving a lot of metal in there.

The 25-06 improved is one of the easier rounds to form. Try something like a 30 Meyer!
gary

MudRunner2005 said:

I've tried.....You won't sell them to me now. You decided to keep them and keep loading and forming for the .25-06 AI.....Remember?

Seriously, whenever you decide you get tired of forming and want to go .257 Wby, or something else, please let me know. I'll still buy all the brass and dies for the agreed-upon price we had before. Just please make sure it's after this month....This month hasn't been a good one. I've bought too many things I shouldn't have instead of saving my money. LOL

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When I can find a smith to rebarrel my action and chamber and throat it like it should be I'll get rid of all my 25-06AI stuff. My usual smith wonr throat the chamber out far enough ( as described and prescribed) for a 257 Weatherby
and Im not taking the chance of lowing one up on the first shot.

Had I known then what I know now....Id have gone with a straight 25-06

MudRunner2005 said:

I'll be watching the thread for your response, as I have no current Ackley calibers to test this for myself, or else I would have already given it a go. Reason I ask is that I'm in the middle of a build. All that's left is the funds for smith work...Then she will be completed! At that time I will need to have brass and dies readily available, as I have all the other major components on my bench.

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MudRunner,

I tried two varieties of AI cases in the standard case neck die. I tried a 22-250AI and an AI 6X47 Lapua. Here's the confusing part: My 22 caliber neck die is a 22PPC......It didn't appear to alter the Ackley shoulder. The standard 6X47 Lapua neck die did definitely alter the Ackley shoulder.

My hypothesis would be: the PPC shoulder is as big or bigger than the 22-250AI and therefore it didn't swedge it down. The AI 6X47 Lapua shoulder got swedged down inside the standard 6X47 Lapua neck die.

Your solution might be to aquire a 25-284 neck die, beings the 284 shoulder is larger than the 25-06 shoulder. You could perhaps also get a 6.5-284 or 6-284 bushing neck die and use the appropriate 25 caliber bushing. With any luck that might work in a pinch.........I don't really know for sure, but it seems like it would work temporarily.??

Hope that sheds some light on your question.

I wonder if you could find a 280 AI bushing die in stock somewhere and use a 25cal bushing, the other dimentions should be close. Maybe?

bigngreen said:

I wonder if you could find a 280 AI bushing die in stock somewhere and use a 25cal bushing, the other dimentions should be close. Maybe?

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That's a good idea. That would probably be a much better fit than using a 25-284 neck die.

Get the Lee Collet neck die for the 25-06. It will not alter the
shoulder and puts less stress on the brass.gun)

The other day it hit me...

Couldn't I just use my .257 Wby Mag neck-sizer die? It has a much wider shoulder area than the .25-06 AI...And they're very similar in height.

As long as you can size the neck for the depth of the bullet you are using without messing up the shoulder. I like the Lee as it puts no stretch or strain on the neck or shoulder as you pull the expander plug out and I think the cartridge stays more concentric.lightbulb

I use Redding bushing dies for my 26-06AI. One thing I'm missing here... Yeah you shoot standard 25-06 rounds and form it to the AI chamber but the brass will be short from the forming process. I form a false shoulder using .270 brass and fireform with Blue Dot for the proper brass length. Guess it depends on whether it's a true P.O. Ackley chamber.

MudRunner2005 said:

The other day it hit me...

Couldn't I just use my .257 Wby Mag neck-sizer die? It has a much wider shoulder area than the .25-06 AI...And they're very similar in height.

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Certainly worth a try! It's the shoulder and body that we don't want to touch in this case (your case). We simply want to size the neck enough to reload another round if I am understanding you correctly.??

Granted, whatever we come up with is only temporary; because we'll eventually have to get a "real" Ackley Improved die to FL size the case with. In the long run, our best precision will likely come from using a genuine Ackley 40°die.

I didn't have these worries when building the 6LD, because I had a fitted neck chamber.........meaning that I didn't have to resize the brass at all to take another bullet/reload. My finished/final dies were made by Neil Jones Custom Products.

Gene Bland:
I don't know a darn thing about the Lee Collet Dies. Are they made to precisely fit the parent case or are they just big open holes with a bushing/collet that fits the neck.??

Most dies fit the case (more or less). They accommodate the shoulder angle, body taper, base dimension, shoulder dimension, neck dimension and OAL in order to center or align the case when pressing it into the die. Are the Lee collet dies something different?

The Lee die is a little more involved than that. But basically, it allows the center of the neck to locate on a stem the right diameter and then closes a sizing collet on the outside of the neck, forming it around the mandrel. The main thing about the die is that it has to match the length of the cartridge. A die for the .308 will not work for a 30-06. The 06 die would work for the .308, but only by shimming the shellholder to make up the difference in length.
So, it cannot alter the shoulder or the case body and when it sizes the neck it remains concentric.
Properly adjusted, it cannot damage anything. It also sizes the neck to just short of the shoulder without the dreaded doe-nut hole. And it will work with turned necks if the neck is turned into the radius at the neck shoulder junction.
The big plus is not deforming or stretching the cartridge pulling the expander plug up through the sized neck.gun)