Need some help totally baffled

DartonJager

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
976
Long long time ago bought a 24" Savage 10 FCP- in .308 Winchester. Sat on it a long while. Then three years ago needed to set it up for deer hunting VERY last minuet and as I had no reloading dies, bullets, brass or powder had to buy some ammo. Only second time in my life I have ever bought factory made CF rifle ammo. Topped it with a Weaver Grand Slam 4.5-14x40mm scope.

Ended up buying a bunch of blue box Federal .308 Power Shock ammo based on the stellar reviews I found all over the internet plus it was on sale for a phenomenal price of less than .70c a round. Bought both 150 grain and 180 grain loads. Was utterly astonished how well both the 150 grain and 180 grain loads shot. Both under 2" at 300 yards one ragged hole groups at 100 yards. Even more surprising was both the 150 and 180 grain shot to the same POI at 100 and 200 yards and still close enough at 300 to not be worth adjusting the scope.



Was intending to use the rifle as an economical way to teach myself long range shooting VS using any of my belted or short mag rifles.

Earlier this year after a 3 year + search finally found a suitable good enough scope that matched 90%+ of my long range requirements at a price I could afford and bought it. Ended up buying from a member here a Trijicon Credo HX 2.5-15x42.
Mounted it on a Precision hard Core gear 20 MOA base with Warne horizontally split rings that I glass bed the bottom half of the rings.

Was down to my last 30 rounds each of 180 grain and 150 grain Federal PS ammo and was done mounting the scope so I was really itching to sight in the scope and get started shooting long range, and I had finally acquired my 308 dies but hadn't done any reloading so I stopped by my local Cabela's and surprisingly enough they had the same Federal power Shock ammo but only in 180 grain so I bought two boxes.

Three days later was at the range and after setting my scope up for eye relief and getting the cross hair vertically plumb to the barrel, started my zeroing process. As I wanted to save the Federal PS factory ammo I knew to be vary accurate, I instead used the newly bought 180 grain ammo to zero my scope.

From the very first round I loaded by hand into the chamber I noticed closing the bolt required more force than should be necessary based on shooting the other ammo. I ejected the round and then chambered a round from the other ammo that shot so well. It took undoubtedly noticeably less force to close the bolt and chamber a round with the odder ammo VS the new ammo.
Not a significant more amount but definitely noticeably more.

I used the older factory ammo and once the rifle was zeroed at 100, shot one 5 shot 100 yard group and it was true to past performance a single ragged hole group. Shot three shots of the more difficult ammo and it produced a group just over 2" C-C. Bolt didn't get any more difficult to open or close and didn't notice any increase in felt recoil.

I chose not to shoot any more of either ammo until I got home and checked the ammo.

Now this is where I get totally baffled. Using my Hornady Head Space comparator and bullet comparators I measured the loaded case lengths from base to shoulder and from base to bullet Ogive. Measure 10 different cases each of the older 150 grain and 50% of the new 180 grain ammo and here is the measurements averages I came up with:

Older 150 grain Federal Power Shock ammo:
Base to Shoulder measured 1.6185" +/- 0.0015" for ten randomly selected cartridges of the 18 left
Base to Ogive measured 2.150 +/- 0.002" for same ten randomly selected cartridges
Base to tip of bullet 2.7185 =/- 0.0155" same cartridges I understand this measurement tends to be unreliable due to significant variances in bullet length but I measured it anyhow.

New a180 grain ammo that was difficult to close bolt on measured 50% of all remaining ammo
Base to shoulder 1.6180 +/- 0.0018"
Base to Ogive 2.1225 +/- 0.0020"
Base to tip 2.7035 +/- 0.0191"

Yes you read correctly the rounds that were more difficult to close the bolt on were the essentially the same length base to shoulder and were SHORTER in the two other measurements I made. I measured every round five times each for every measurement and did an average.

All measurement are shorter all SAMMI maximum.

I then used a dry erase marker and coated the entire exterior of both different loaded casing and chambered them and noticed no significant makings on the ejected rounds. I also measured fired casings of both different loadings and again both were well below maximum SAMMI specs.

So how can Factory loaded ammo that is the essentially the same length from base to shoulder and shorter from base to Ogive AND shorter than SAMMI maximum both loaded and fired be more difficult to chamber than a round essentially longer or the same length?
 
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Long long time ago bought a 24" Savage 10 FCP- in .308 Winchester. Sat on it a long while. Then three years ago needed to set it up for deer hunting VERY last minuet and as I had no reloading dies, bullets, brass or powder had to buy some ammo. Only second time in my life I have ever bought factory made CF rifle ammo. Topped it with a Weaver Grand Slam 4.5-14x40mm scope.

Ended up buying a bunch of blue box Federal .308 Power Shock ammo based on the stellar reviews I found all over the internet plus it was on sale for a phenomenal price of less than .70c a round. Bought both 150 grain and 180 grain loads. Was utterly astonished how well both the 150 grain and 180 grain loads shot. Both under 2" at 300 yards one ragged hole groups at 100 yards. Even more surprising was both the 150 and 180 grain shot to the same POI at 100 and 200 yards and still close enough at 300 to not be worth adjusting the scope.



Was intending to use the rifle as an economical way to teach myself long range shooting VS using any of my belted or short mag rifles.

Earlier this year after a 3 year + search finally found a suitable good enough scope that matched 90%+ of my long range requirements at a price I could afford and bought it. Ended up buying from a member here a Trijicon Credo HX 2.5-15x42.
Mounted it on a Precision hard Core gear 20 MOA base with Warne horizontally split rings that I glass bed the bottom half of the rings.

Was down to my last 30 rounds each of 180 grain and 150 grain Federal PS ammo and was done mounting the scope so I was really itching to sight in the scope and get started shooting long range, and I had finally acquired my 308 dies but hadn't done any reloading so I stopped by my local Cabela's and surprisingly enough they had the same Federal power Shock ammo but only in 180 grain so I bought two boxes.

Three days later was at the range and after setting my scope up for eye relief and getting the cross hair vertically plumb to the barrel, started my zeroing process. As I wanted to save the Federal PS factory ammo I knew to be vary accurate, I instead used the newly bought 180 grain ammo to zero my scope.

From the very first round I loaded by hand into the chamber I noticed closing the bolt required more force than should be necessary based on shooting the other ammo. I ejected the round and then chambered a round from the other ammo that shot so well. It took undoubtedly noticeably less force to close the bolt and chamber a round with the odder ammo VS the new ammo.
Not a significant more amount but definitely noticeably more.

I used the older factory ammo and once the rifle was zeroed at 100, shot one 5 shot 100 yard group and it was true to past performance a single ragged hole group. Shot three shots of the more difficult ammo and it produced a group just over 2" C-C. Bolt didn't get any more difficult to open or close and didn't notice any increase in felt recoil.

I chose not to shoot any more of either ammo until I got home and checked the ammo.

Now this is where I get totally baffled. Using my Hornady Head Space comparator and bullet comparators I measured the loaded case lengths from base to shoulder and from base to bullet Ogive. Measure 10 different cases each of the older 150 grain and 50% of the new 180 grain ammo and here is the measurements averages I came up with:

Older 150 grain Federal Power Shock ammo:
Base to Shoulder measured 1.6185" +/- 0.0015" for ten randomly selected cartridges of the 18 left
Base to Ogive measured 2.150 +/- 0.002" for same ten randomly selected cartridges
Base to tip of bullet 2.7185 =/- 0.0155" same cartridges I understand this measurement tends to be unreliable due to significant variances in bullet length but I measured it anyhow.

New a180 grain ammo that was difficult to close bolt on measured 50% of all remaining ammo
Base to shoulder 1.6180 +/- 0.0018"
Base to Ogive 2.1225 +/- 0.0020"
Base to tip 2.7035 +/- 0.0191"

Yes you read correctly the rounds that were more difficult to close the bolt on were the essentially the same length base to shoulder and were SHORTER in the two other measurements I made. I measured every round five times each for every measurement and did an average.

All measurement are shorter all SAMMI maximum.

I then used a dry erase marker and coated the entire exterior of both different loaded casing and chambered them and noticed no significant makings on the ejected rounds. I also measured fired casings of both different loadings and again both were well below maximum SAMMI specs.

So how can Factory loaded ammo that is the essentially the same length from base to shoulder and shorter from base to Ogive AND shorter than SAMMI maximum both loaded and fired be more difficult to chamber than a round essentially shorter or the same length?
It could be the bullet itself, bullet change in ammo, or a bullet design change. Take a black sharpie and color the whole bullet of a new rd, let it dry, chamber it, and eject it, while ejecting, hold the cartridge straight with a finger so the case doesn't try to be pushed toward the side of the action from the ejector.
Inspect that bullet, is it marred up. What I am saying, the new bullet may be into your lands.
 
Thanks
You are correct about a different bullet The 180 grain bullet loaded in the new ammo is definitely visibly of a different design. Will try the sharpie test.
 
Tried coloring five rounds of the ammo both the case and the bullet that has the problem chambering and cycled each one 3x and none showed any evidence of contact with the lands or chamber or significant marks of any kind.
Truly the cause for this is a mystery to me. How can a factory round whos case length from base to shoulder is essentially the same length (1.6185 vs 1.6180) of a round of factory ammo from a different lot# of the same exact ammo and is actually shorter (2.150 vs 2.1225) from base to Ogive and is have difficulty chambering?

I also took my calipers and used them to mark one loaded case each of a round from the old ammo that fits normally and one that is difficult to chamber and mark it every 1/16" from where the shoulder meets the case neck to about 1/2 the length back and measured both and again found no differences in OD that were anywhere near significant enough to cause this issue.

Unfortunately I now have 33 rounds of unusable ammo.
I guess I could pull a bullet from one, resize it and see what happens.
 
Tried coloring five rounds of the ammo both the case and the bullet that has the problem chambering and cycled each one 3x and none showed any evidence of contact with the lands or chamber or significant marks of any kind.
Truly the cause for this is a mystery to me. How can a factory round whos case length from base to shoulder is essentially the same length (1.6185 vs 1.6180) of a round of factory ammo from a different lot# of the same exact ammo and is actually shorter (2.150 vs 2.1225) from base to Ogive and is have difficulty chambering?

I also took my calipers and used them to mark one loaded case each of a round from the old ammo that fits normally and one that is difficult to chamber and mark it every 1/16" from where the shoulder meets the case neck to about 1/2 the length back and measured both and again found no differences in OD that were anywhere near significant enough to cause this issue.

Unfortunately I now have 33 rounds of unusable ammo.
I guess I could pull a bullet from one, resize it and see what happens.
Pull a bullet and see if the case goes goes in unobstructed.
 
Tried coloring five rounds of the ammo both the case and the bullet that has the problem chambering and cycled each one 3x and none showed any evidence of contact with the lands or chamber or significant marks of any kind.
Truly the cause for this is a mystery to me. How can a factory round whos case length from base to shoulder is essentially the same length (1.6185 vs 1.6180) of a round of factory ammo from a different lot# of the same exact ammo and is actually shorter (2.150 vs 2.1225) from base to Ogive and is have difficulty chambering?

I also took my calipers and used them to mark one loaded case each of a round from the old ammo that fits normally and one that is difficult to chamber and mark it every 1/16" from where the shoulder meets the case neck to about 1/2 the length back and measured both and again found no differences in OD that were anywhere near significant enough to cause this issue.

Unfortunately I now have 33 rounds of unusable ammo.
I guess I could pull a bullet from one, resize it and see what happens.
Don't believe it's the ammo then. It's a mechanical issue not a fitment issue.

Have you tightened the action screws to a farmer tight torque setting? The reason I ask is because a buddy bought a used Kimber Montana in .308. When he tried operating the bolt it wouldn't "slide" smoothly and was difficult to close(It only takes about 15-20in/lbs to "twist" or "bend" with bad inletting or bedding.). I fixed the issue by bedding his new-used rifle.

Something is not square.
 
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Long long time ago bought a 24" Savage 10 FCP- in .308 Winchester. Sat on it a long while. Then three years ago needed to set it up for deer hunting VERY last minuet and as I had no reloading dies, bullets, brass or powder had to buy some ammo. Only second time in my life I have ever bought factory made CF rifle ammo. Topped it with a Weaver Grand Slam 4.5-14x40mm scope.

Ended up buying a bunch of blue box Federal .308 Power Shock ammo based on the stellar reviews I found all over the internet plus it was on sale for a phenomenal price of less than .70c a round. Bought both 150 grain and 180 grain loads. Was utterly astonished how well both the 150 grain and 180 grain loads shot. Both under 2" at 300 yards one ragged hole groups at 100 yards. Even more surprising was both the 150 and 180 grain shot to the same POI at 100 and 200 yards and still close enough at 300 to not be worth adjusting the scope.



Was intending to use the rifle as an economical way to teach myself long range shooting VS using any of my belted or short mag rifles.

Earlier this year after a 3 year + search finally found a suitable good enough scope that matched 90%+ of my long range requirements at a price I could afford and bought it. Ended up buying from a member here a Trijicon Credo HX 2.5-15x42.
Mounted it on a Precision hard Core gear 20 MOA base with Warne horizontally split rings that I glass bed the bottom half of the rings.

Was down to my last 30 rounds each of 180 grain and 150 grain Federal PS ammo and was done mounting the scope so I was really itching to sight in the scope and get started shooting long range, and I had finally acquired my 308 dies but hadn't done any reloading so I stopped by my local Cabela's and surprisingly enough they had the same Federal power Shock ammo but only in 180 grain so I bought two boxes.

Three days later was at the range and after setting my scope up for eye relief and getting the cross hair vertically plumb to the barrel, started my zeroing process. As I wanted to save the Federal PS factory ammo I knew to be vary accurate, I instead used the newly bought 180 grain ammo to zero my scope.

From the very first round I loaded by hand into the chamber I noticed closing the bolt required more force than should be necessary based on shooting the other ammo. I ejected the round and then chambered a round from the other ammo that shot so well. It took undoubtedly noticeably less force to close the bolt and chamber a round with the odder ammo VS the new ammo.
Not a significant more amount but definitely noticeably more.

I used the older factory ammo and once the rifle was zeroed at 100, shot one 5 shot 100 yard group and it was true to past performance a single ragged hole group. Shot three shots of the more difficult ammo and it produced a group just over 2" C-C. Bolt didn't get any more difficult to open or close and didn't notice any increase in felt recoil.

I chose not to shoot any more of either ammo until I got home and checked the ammo.

Now this is where I get totally baffled. Using my Hornady Head Space comparator and bullet comparators I measured the loaded case lengths from base to shoulder and from base to bullet Ogive. Measure 10 different cases each of the older 150 grain and 50% of the new 180 grain ammo and here is the measurements averages I came up with:

Older 150 grain Federal Power Shock ammo:
Base to Shoulder measured 1.6185" +/- 0.0015" for ten randomly selected cartridges of the 18 left
Base to Ogive measured 2.150 +/- 0.002" for same ten randomly selected cartridges
Base to tip of bullet 2.7185 =/- 0.0155" same cartridges I understand this measurement tends to be unreliable due to significant variances in bullet length but I measured it anyhow.

New a180 grain ammo that was difficult to close bolt on measured 50% of all remaining ammo
Base to shoulder 1.6180 +/- 0.0018"
Base to Ogive 2.1225 +/- 0.0020"
Base to tip 2.7035 +/- 0.0191"

Yes you read correctly the rounds that were more difficult to close the bolt on were the essentially the same length base to shoulder and were SHORTER in the two other measurements I made. I measured every round five times each for every measurement and did an average.

All measurement are shorter all SAMMI maximum.

I then used a dry erase marker and coated the entire exterior of both different loaded casing and chambered them and noticed no significant makings on the ejected rounds. I also measured fired casings of both different loadings and again both were well below maximum SAMMI specs.

So how can Factory loaded ammo that is the essentially the same length from base to shoulder and shorter from base to Ogive AND shorter than SAMMI maximum both loaded and fired be more difficult to chamber than a round essentially longer or the same length?
Is it possible the primer is protruding a little proud of the base that would cause chambering issues. David
 
If you have a borescope, look and see if you have a carbon ring build up at the bullet neck end of your chamber. We had federal factory rounds of different lots in a .243 that went way over pressure due to cartridge OAL variations and the owner doesn't clean very much....
 
If you have a borescope, look and see if you have a carbon ring build up at the bullet neck end of your chamber. We had federal factory rounds of different lots in a .243 that went way over pressure due to cartridge OAL variations and the owner doesn't clean very much....
Thanks for the suggestion, but I had cleaned the the rifle VERY well prior to that range trip having taken a length of rope that fits perfectly snugly in my Savage's barrel saturated with Boretech C4 carbon cleaner for 90ish minuets with the barrel plugged at both ends. Then I use Sharp Shoot R carb-out fallowed by Sharp Shoot R Wipe-out W/accelerator.

Unfortunately haven't gotten around to buying a Teslong yet.

Like I said I am utterly at a loss as for the cause of this issue. Am going to pull a round of the problem factory ammo, FL resize it with 0.002 shoulder bump and see what happens.
 
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