Data for shooting at higher elevations

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yobuck said:

Well as for rangefinders, there were very good ones in use during WW1, and the same type was used in WW2.
These were used by all the countries involved.
Bausch&Lomb made one as well as Barr&Stroud with the latter being easier to use and the most popular with long range hunters in this country for decades.
The Carl Zeiss co. made excellent ones for Germany.
The Wild co. pronounced (Vild) which is a Swiss company also produced them. Many of these units became available after the war, and long range hunters bought and used them.
I still own a Wild unit and it is always in my vehicle when i hunt.
Regardless as to which lazer unit you might own dont ever bet anything you dont want to lose by comparing it to any of those units, assuming they are in good condition which many are.
If you can see the target regardless of conditions, you will get a range, period, and you wont always do that with even the very best lazers with the possible exception of the military units.
As for having (precise) data, that might be fine when your shooting at some type of target, which is what most people are doing.
But good luck with that approach when your hunting.

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Those were the best available back then - but they were not very portable and not very fast to use. I would also point out the M1 Abrams tank uses a laser rangefinder; if the optical rangefinders on the M60 were so great, they would have stayed with those.

LRNut said:

Those were the best available back then - but they were not very portable and not very fast to use. I would also point out the M1 Abrams tank uses a laser rangefinder; if the optical rangefinders on the M60 were so great, they would have stayed with those.

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Well i believe the Abrams tank is military hardware?lol
You see, serious hunters are either doing it or thinking about doing it on a year round basis.
By and large they dont just go wandering about looking for a target. They have specific places they go to hunt, and once there they stay there till the day ends.
Sorta like a guy who sits on the same stump on the edge of a swamp every day, or another guy who prefers sitting in trees.
When the leaves drop to the ground as they do each fall, the serious guys take their 15# rengefinders to those hunting locations and range a bunch of things like say rocks or certain trees. Rocks and trees as a rule dont move around very much, so whatever the range is today, is apt to be the same say 10 years from now.
A record is made of all those targets so that when say a deer is spotted close to one of them we pretty much know how far it is without any rangefinder.
And you know what, it dosent need to be the precise number anyway.
Now we all know the dirty little secret about lazers not always showing up for work every day, so that system might be a good idea even for those.
An even better system is to shoot at the targets and make note of that information also.
You see when hunting, time is everything, even a few seconds might mean wether you get a shot or you dont.
As for the wind, best to evaluate that when you first arrive, and if its bad just go someplace else where it isnt.
That guy with the beard in the video wont be sounding quite as intelligent when he is up to the plate with the wind blowing as hard as he is.

yobuck said:

Well i believe the Abrams tank is military hardware?lol
You see, serious hunters are either doing it or thinking about doing it on a year round basis.
By and large they dont just go wandering about looking for a target. They have specific places they go to hunt, and once there they stay there till the day ends.
Sorta like a guy who sits on the same stump on the edge of a swamp every day, or another guy who prefers sitting in trees.
When the leaves drop to the ground as they do each fall, the serious guys take their 15# rengefinders to those hunting locations and range a bunch of things like say rocks or certain trees. Rocks and trees as a rule dont move around very much, so whatever the range is today, is apt to be the same say 10 years from now.
A record is made of all those targets so that when say a deer is spotted close to one of them we pretty much know how far it is without any rangefinder.
And you know what, it dosent need to be the precise number anyway.
Now we all know the dirty little secret about lazers not always showing up for work every day, so that system might be a good idea even for those.
An even better system is to shoot at the targets and make note of that information also.
You see when hunting, time is everything, even a few seconds might mean wether you get a shot or you dont.
As for the wind, best to evaluate that when you first arrive, and if its bad just go someplace else where it isnt.
That guy with the beard in the video wont be sounding quite as intelligent when he is up to the plate with the wind blowing as hard as he is.

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1. Most hunting out west you are not sitting waiting for something to appear unless you are dove hunting.
2. As for the wind, it is what it is. When it is blowing harder, I get closer. I track every shot I shoot at long range but divide them into three buckets: mild or no wind, moderate, and strong. I don't hardly even shoot anymore at less than 1000 if the wind is calm. My hit rate out to 1000 is pretty **** good in mild to moderate winds. Strong winds? Falls apart; barely over 60% trying to hit a 10" square target at LR. In a hunting situation, I know I have to get closer. It has been a long time since I missed at 500 no matter what the wind is doing.

As for the guy in the video, I agree: outside of wind, almost everything else in LR is noise. If you have to "true" your MV, you are not shooting enough - there shouldn't be any surprises in terms of vertical impact.

LRNut said:

1. Most hunting out west you are not sitting waiting for something to appear unless you are dove hunting.
2. As for the wind, it is what it is. When it is blowing harder, I get closer. I track every shot I shoot at long range but divide them into three buckets: mild or no wind, moderate, and strong. I don't hardly even shoot anymore at less than 1000 if the wind is calm. My hit rate out to 1000 is pretty **** good in mild to moderate winds. Strong winds? Falls apart; barely over 60% trying to hit a 10" square target at LR. In a hunting situation, I know I have to get closer. It has been a long time since I missed at 500 no matter what the wind is doing.

As for the guy in the video, I agree: outside of wind, almost everything else in LR is noise. If you have to "true" your MV, you are not shooting enough - there shouldn't be any surprises in terms of vertical impact.

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Well there are lots and lots of guys who head west every year to hunt.
Many of them only hunt long range, and they do it the same way they do at home in PA.
From a fixed location.

yobuck said:

Well there are lots and lots of guys who head west every year to hunt.
Many of them only hunt long range, and they do it the same way they do at home in PA.
From a fixed location.

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yobuck said:

But im curious what makes you think first round hits arent possible other than by your method?

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You criticize others, yet you also try to imply that "your" method is better.
For us that live out west, we do not use a fixed location. Even some of you geriatric dudes who just don't want or can't put in the miles in on foot anymore, still jeep around and glass from that regard.

If being a bad shooter in PA from your fixed location is how you do things and it works for you then great, but you're out of your depth around the rest of the country. Think about it, it's you vs everyone else…it's not because you're right…there's more then what you're use to in your fish bowl.

dfanonymous said:

You criticize others, yet you also try to imply that "your" method is better.
For us that live out west, we do not use a fixed location. Even some of you geriatric dudes who just don't want or can't put in the miles in on foot anymore, still jeep around and glass from that regard.

If being a bad shooter in PA from your fixed location is how you do things and it works for you then great, but you're out of your depth around the rest of the country. Think about it, it's you vs everyone else…it's not because you're right…there's more then what you're use to in your fish bowl.

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Well admittedly things have ventured a bit off coarse here, and ill take at least some of the responsibility for that.
First off ive been to pretty much all of the western states both as a hunter and a tourist, so i am very aware of what it looks like out there.
By and large however you wont be walking around much with the type of equipment required for any type of serious long range hunting, regardless as to where you are or how young you are.
And admittedly conditions can change during the day which might require a change of location.
Sun angle being just one of them.
We have our all day places as well as morning or afternoon places due to sun location.
As for the method of setting up for a shot, what ever works for you works, and im fine with that.
But lets not think shooting at steel and hunting will work the same way in realville anywhere you might be.

But my question was, (what makes you think its the only way?)
Frankly, ive never even seen a Kestral, let alone try one.
Nor do i know anybody who does use one, and that includes some very good shooters.
As i recall early on they were just a device for reading wind speed at the location you are standing at the time.
But obviously they now include other information as well as giving the wind speed at the location you are standing.
Some rangefinders today offer the same features, except for the wind speed at the location you are standing.
Some very successful L/R hunters adapt an old I phone to include a program for obtaining all that and that works well also.
Except of coarse for the wind speed at the location you are standing.
And of coarse there are still a few of us left who feel that by having a good click chart along for the gun, and maybe sending a sighter shot over there will still get it done also.
And we wont really need to know what the wind speed is where were standing.
Of coarse the PA hunters will be sitting not standing.
Either looking thru very good glasses on a tripod, or while shooting from their bench.

Yobuck:

There is one way to demonstrate you really don't know what you are doing when it comes to LR shooting: hold up a Kestrel and think that is representative of the wind speed to your target. It is certainly better than nothing, but nothing beats mirage; if I can't see mirage (like in strong winds), my hit rate plummets, kestrel or no kestrel.

Well then explain to me how a Kestrel helps with reading the mirage?
Note that im not saying understanding mirage isnt important,
just asking what roll a Kestrel might have in that.
So far all ive heard are attacks on me for asking questions.

Yobuck:
I am actually agreeing with you to some extent on the Kestrel - I frankly don't get why you need to spend $400 or more for an anemometer - you are buying the AB software; the wind meter is secondary. I much prefer the SIG ABS or the GR7 rangefinders because they give a ballistic solution when you range.

You read mirage through your spotting scope or shooting scope by focusing between you and the target; a Kestrel obviously cannot do that.

LRNut said:

Yobuck:
I am actually agreeing with you to some extent on the Kestrel - I frankly don't get why you need to spend $400 or more for an anemometer - you are buying the AB software; the wind meter is secondary. I much prefer the SIG ABS or the GR7 rangefinders because they give a ballistic solution when you range.

You read mirage through your spotting scope or shooting scope by focusing between you and the target; a Kestrel obviously cannot do that.

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Well thank you, thats what ive been attempting to get someone to say or admit to.
As for the mirage, have you ever noticed that if you reduce the power it becomes less visible?
Which raises the question of what the problem actually is?

Reading mirage doesn't give you an accurate wind solution. If anything it gives you wind direction. Not for the level of accuracy most of us expect of ourselves today.

The kestrel will give you wind to the mph at the shooter. Which is a great place to start.

There kestrel has a few wind options. To include military quick wind, if you're familiar with how to do wind in your head. I mean, much like laser rangefinder finders are essential to increased accuracy, so are kestrels. Just the elimination of having to figure out the cosine of wind direction is a time saver…especially while hunting is useful.

If you have no idea what I'm talking about then you are a amateur who don't know what they dunt know. Most guys on here don't actually hunting long range and just bs at the range. Those that fall mostly in the category don't need a kestrel.

dfanonymous said:

Reading mirage doesn't give you an accurate wind solution. If anything it gives you wind direction. Not for the level of accuracy most of us expect of ourselves today.

The kestrel will give you wind to the mph at the shooter. Which is a great place to start.

There kestrel has a few wind options. To include military quick wind, if you're familiar with how to do wind in your head. I mean, much like laser rangefinder finders are essential to increased accuracy, so are kestrels. Just the elimination of having to figure out the cosine of wind direction is a time saver…especially while hunting is useful.

If you have no idea what I'm talking about then you are a amateur who don't know what they dunt know. Most guys on here don't actually hunting long range and just bs at the range. Those that fall mostly in the category don't need a kestrel.

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Totally disagree. Mirage gives you both the direction and the magnitude of the wind (up to about 12-14 mph, when it washes out) if you know how to read it. I can't tell you how many times it was calm at my shooting position but mirage showed a slight drift one way or the other.

Mirage also "corrects" for the angle of the wind.

You seriously think a Kestrel is better than reading mirage? I get a serious laugh seeing guys at the range shooting 500 yards holding up a Kestrel or other anemometer when a spotting scope or side parallax adjustment tells them all they need to know. BTW, they usually miss.

The wind where you are shooting is rarely the wind halfway to the target. I often check it with an anemometer but you know what? I left both of my anemometers in CO two weeks ago and Monday went out to the desert. Mirage was shifting left to right, right to left because it was mostly from behind. I took the prevailing condition, figured it was about 5 mph straight crosswind, zapped it with my BR7 twice to make sure I had the range, and then toggled my wind to 5 mph. BR7 said 1.2 MOA. I was shooting at 790; held 1.5 (BR7 doesn't correct for about .2 spin drift [zeroed at 500 for spin]) and hit 2" left. Turned my gun to my 1180 target. Mirage was to the left pretty consistently, which was totally the opposite of my shooting position. Held 2.4 to right, hit about 4" low and 6" right (too much wind allowance)

LRNut said:

Totally disagree. Mirage gives you both the direction and the magnitude of the wind (up to about 12-14 mph, when it washes out) if you know how to read it. I can't tell you how many times it was calm at my shooting position but mirage showed a slight drift one way or the other.

Mirage also "corrects" for the angle of the wind.

You seriously think a Kestrel is better than reading mirage? I get a serious laugh seeing guys at the range shooting 500 yards holding up a Kestrel or other anemometer when a spotting scope or side parallax adjustment tells them all they need to know. BTW, they usually miss.

The wind where you are shooting is rarely the wind halfway to the target. I often check it with an anemometer but you know what? I left both of my anemometers in CO two weeks ago and Monday went out to the desert. Mirage was shifting left to right, right to left because it was mostly from behind. I took the prevailing condition, figured it was about 5 mph straight crosswind, zapped it with my BR7 twice to make sure I had the range, and then toggled my wind to 5 mph. BR7 said 1.2 MOA. I was shooting at 790; held 1.5 (BR7 doesn't correct for about .2 spin drift [zeroed at 500 for spin]) and hit 2" left. Turned my gun to my 1180 target. Mirage was to the left pretty consistently, which was totally the opposite of my shooting position. Held 2.4 to right, hit about 4" low and 6" right (too much wind allowance)

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I know that's what was taught. I've had wasted countless days getting good at mirage but it's not an end all be all way of determining wind at long to extreme range. It's not just me. Even some of the best shooters in the world to include Emil Praslick agree that mirage has limitations.

In a tactical setting…or in Texas, it's useless at night. And it's useless in areas that have a lot of terrain features. It also doesn't help you with anything taking place at max ord.

A) I am not the guys you see at the range.
B) the kestrel is a issued piece of military kit. For a reason.
C) So everyone who shoots PRS/NRL is just some garbage shooter? Bryan litz at ko2m getting first round impacts at two miles away with a 1/4 moa group is what? Because of mirage? Lol

You're trying to explain something to me, like I don't understand mirage…I do…it just isn't the only way or the best way to do things. It's A way. A tool of many tools.

While I subscribe to the thought that ALL wind matters, the wind at the shooter is the most important, and the wind at the target has the least influence to a wind solution. You're much better off understanding the fluid dynamics of the terrain you are shooting in and combing them with your knowledge of mirage.

Mirage is not "autocorrecting." it's not telling you angle or the distance of that gust the way you are describing it. Not in an accurate way to the mph. You or a spotter can pan the spotting scope until you reach a boil and that will be the no value point of the wind, and the direction offset direction of the spotting scope relative to the target will be your cosine angle.

If you're watching the waves turn into a boil at the 1030 (.707) at 1200y from your position, and you know the wind is 8 mph high gust with 7mph average coming from your o'clock (.866) at your position because you have a kestrel…what is your down range winds high gust if you're gun shoots .5 mil per 6 mph before bc degradation?

No, a hunter doesn't need to do all this, or have this level of understanding, of wind. I realize it's a headache but I want you to realize that you're not convincing me of anything. I know how to shoot in wind.

The answer is roughly 6.5 mph at 1200y using non auto correcting mirage and the kestrel.
Average that out with 8mph if you are shooting in the gust, plus add .2 for BC degradation and plus .1 mrad for spin. You have a solution. The limitation of this word problem is real world conditions but the process is the same.