250 grain Barnes tipped, no Blood?

Guys, Ive been a Barnes fan for quite awhile now, and shoot them in my CVA Optima v2. Load is 79 grains, (weighed), Blackhorn 209, CCI mag shotshell primers. Distance was 147 yards. Broadside shot, center of lungs, full penetration, except it didnt exit. Balled up inside skin, fully expanded, perfect mushroom, petals all attached . This has happened twice actually. Last year, again, double lunged large deer, 135 yards, no blood until 6 ft from carcus. This year, about the same. Deer went 25 yards, last year, 40. Now, obviously, both deer expired quickly, but wonder why no blood. My friend shot one with same bullet, last weekend, deer ran into really thick stuff. He thought, no blood, maybe he missed. I think not. Thoughts, or suggestions appreciated!

Bullet didn't pass through because it probably needs more power... I shoot the same load but use 90 measured grains.

Here's the deal........... shot placement.

Shooting a deer through the lungs doesn't necessarily mean you'll have a huge blood trail, or even an easy to follow trail. Many times, more than most realize, the entire body cavity has to fill with blood before you get that "a blind man could follow" blood trail.
Take lower, bottom of the lungs/top of the heart shots and there's less cavity to fill.

I like the Barnes TMZ but they may expand too much for muzzleloader velocities to get exits. A different bullet might achieve reliable exits and the immediate expulsion of blood.

I shot a large hog with a Speer 400gr JSP from a 45-70. Muzzle velocity was 1,700 ft/sec. Impact was right behind the shoulder and I was certain that the bullet would exit and leave plenty of sign. However, the pig ran without leaving any sign at all. It got far enough that it wasn't located until the next day. The bullet was fully expanded and measured .90". It was located in the hide on the off-side. I switched to a Swift bullet which displays less expansion.

I've had a lot of pass through blood trails on deer with Hornady 250 SST bullets with 90 gr of blackhorn 209.

I learned a long time ago only exit holes bleed Immediately. We have had several deer that had large exit holes with the Barnes 290
At least you have recovered your animal

ENCORE said:

Here's the deal........... shot placement.

Shooting a deer through the lungs doesn't necessarily mean you'll have a huge blood trail, or even an easy to follow trail. Many times, more than most realize, the entire body cavity has to fill with blood before you get that "a blind man could follow" blood trail.
Take lower, bottom of the lungs/top of the heart shots and there's less cavity to fill.

Click to expand...

I agree. On both occasions, bullet performance was great. Opened up, and very accurate in my gun. It was at the last of shootable lite, and was able to get her to stop, centered crosshair on center chest. Well, that's where it went. It did a tremendous job inside, pretty soupy, if ya know what I mean, but, all else equal thought more blood trail. Most times its not needed, but would have been a help on this one. Thanks for your feedback! 7

After shooting many hundred white tail deer over the past 46 years with about everything between a sharp stick and a 45-70 here is what I have learned. Shoot a deer in the heart and most of the time it will take off like a race horse out of the gate. There will not be much if any blood trail as it runs an average of 60 yards because there is nothing to pump the blood out with.
Shoot a deer in the mid to higher lungs if you get a pass threw you will see some spray blood droplets on the off side and if it runs, 70% of the time, there will be a thin blood trail for the first 25 or so yards until the chest cavity fills with blood for it to come out of the exit. If there is no exit the blood trail will usually come from blood out of the nose as a spray of fine droplets and some lung tissue may be mixed with not much blood coming out of the entrance because it takes time to fill the cavity up and fat and elasticity of the hide may plug the hole.
Shoot a deer lower in the lungs with an exit usually Ray Charles can trail it because the blood trail starts pretty quickly because the cavity does not have to fill up first.
Shoot a deer with a bullet in the center to upper portion of the front shoulder and 99% of the time they drop on the spot and you don't need to do any trailing. That is the shot I use because I don't like to crawl around in the swamp, cut over, green briar, off down a steep mountain hollow into a laurel thicket where there may be a sow bear with cubs.

Here is a example that taught me that just because you have an HUGE EXIT hole you can have no blood trail. Back when the Berger VLD we starting to be praised as a great hunting bullet with in the tracks kills I got some 155 gr and loaded them up for my 30x47 cal rifle. Muzzle velocity 2600 fps. I shot a big doe at 111 yards almost broad side. She was broad side as I started my trigger squeeze but at the same moment the trigger broke she move forward. Bullet impact just clipped the back edge of the scapula and exited just behind the off side scapula. Deer squatted and took off out of the logging road into a VERY THICK pine and green briar cut over that had been clear cut 8 years previously. On the off side where the deer stood when shot for about 5 yards down the trail there was a spray of blood and lung tissue. From that spot on there was not a drop of blood that I could find and I was on my hands and knees crawling looking. There was a deer trail into the cut over that was the only way that deer could have gone because it was so thick. Crawling with a bright flash light down the trail I found the deer about 60 yards from the shooting spot. The deer was laying on the entrance side with the exit side facing up. The exit hole was so large that you could have literally dropped a baseball into the hole and it would not have touch hide. The deer sloshed on the inside. It looked like it's entire chest cavity contents had been run through a blender. The the exit hole was in the upper portion of the chest so nothing came out and the deer went down before the contents came out.

By the way someone mentioned to up the velocity of your bullet to get an exit. That is not necessarily true. Depending on the bullet design, especially the sabot and pistol bullet, they are designed to operate at a certain velocity. If your velocity is greater than this it will expand too much or fragment and thus will be slowed by the larger expansion resistance or loss of mass because of fragmentation to exit. Slow these bullets down to the parameter of velocity design and they will usually exit. It is like the Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets that many poo poo. Trouble is they are running them in magnums that provide an impact velocity over there max impact design of 3100 fps. Slow the impact velocity down to under 2800 fps and they really start to shine.

Just some observations from an old fart.

RT, I agree with all your observations, and have came to much of the same conclusions, as I've given it much thought myself. I most certainly agree with the shoulder shot as well, rifle or muzzleloader. I was having trouble getting her to stop, and was running out of lite as well, which is what prompted the center chest shot. Hind site is always 2020 as they say, and respect your thoughts. And as you ssid, the soup bowl inside her ensured the bullet did its thing. And, I hit her exactly where I aimed, so shoulder shots it is. Thanks as always for your feedback, all the best to you and yours!

daniel brothers said:

I've had a lot of pass through blood trails on deer with Hornady 250 SST bullets with 90 gr of blackhorn 209.

Click to expand...

Was you charge measured or weighed! Mine is 78 weighed, which equals out to approx 110 volume. Just curious! Love the 209. Accuracy rivals centerfire at times!

mine are measured... so you are shooting more than me... good deal... then I now understand you have plenty of power... I would think those slugs would mushroom out to knock them down....Hmmmm....

full expansion means that barnes opened up to under 1" diameter, which is a friggin parachute being pushed through that animal. Not surprised it didnt fully exit at that yardage with full expansion.

Most likely was a high lung shot, which takes longer for the lungs to full up before it starts to leak. Massive internal damage, all that jello can easily plug up holes as well.

I can't say how I feel about Muzzle Loaders on this family oriented forum but the OP knows how I feel about them

FrontierGander said:

full expansion means that barnes opened up to under 1" diameter, which is a friggin parachute being pushed through that animal. Not surprised it didnt fully exit at that yardage with full expansion.

Most likely was a high lung shot, which takes longer for the lungs to full up before it starts to leak. Massive internal damage, all that jello can easily plug up holes as well.

Click to expand...

The bullet fully expanded. Looks like the pic on the box. The exit hole was over an inch. Absolute perfect mushroom. Petals fully expanded. I now believe it wasn't the bullet, it was my placement. From now on, either lower, or shoulder. Thanks for feedback.