BERGER BEWARE!

Deputy819 said:

.......gonna go get my own bowl of popcorn now. This one is spinning up nicely.

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Sorry, not my intent Deputy. I just don't get the lecturing tone to OP; the reason for his post is to show us he IS doing QC on his components.

Except for mixing up his terms (COAL) I don't see much to correct him on.

By the way, if this site insisted that every poster be a "long range" shooter or hunter, and that every post be "long range" related, there would be very little activity here, or at least a lot less.

I'll go back to lurking now!...

Svashtar said:

Which he's doing! Geez, it's like everyone read a different post than I did...

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I think you read his post differently. He isn't stating there is a variance within the same lot. He is stating a variance between two separate lots, which should always be expected regardless of the manufacturer.

The title of his post is also misleading as this isn't a Berger issue. It's not even an "issue". It is 100% normal variance in manufacturing bullets on different days or different machines (hence different lot #s).

Doug Herold said:

Whenever I buy components, i.e., bullets, I always buy them in same lot #'s of 500, 1000, or 1500. The attached photos show the reason why I do this.
Yesterday, I ran out of my supply of the "red label" batch of Berger's and started on the standard "yellow box" of bullets. Always, I check the case head to Ogive measurement to get the cartridge overall length ( C.O.A.L.). I discovered that I was getting @ 0.015 difference in COAL . Additionally, I knew that my brass was not the problem ( 3rd. firing, all trimmed to exact length). The issue had to be in the bullets... and I had JUST switched lot #'s. If I had been setting the "jump" at 0.005", that new round would have put me jammed into the lands @ 0.010". At worst scenario: potentially dangerous pressure, at best: ruined accuracy.
Just posting this to show members what can happen and why OCD is not necessarily a bad disease to have when rolling your own.View attachment 196263View attachment 196262View attachment 196264View attachment 196265

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Sounds like a Berger bashing to me. You will get differences from every bullet manufacturer. Go check every other manufacturer and you will find Berger is not so bad. Go buy customs and you will find variations but not as much.
I understand you are trying to tell people to check their measurements but you don't have to make it sound like Berger is crap. As always, this is my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it.

This thread was worth reading just to find out about the Sinclair Hex Comparator. So much better than the Hornady that requires changing the bushing for each bullet size.

thanks for draining $20 out of my pocket!

Ok guys someone needs to school my simple minded, hillbilly self. Maybe I'll learn something here.

In the op's photos, 2 show 15ths differences from base to ojive of loaded round. 2 show photos of base of bullet to ojive. How are these two measurements related?

2 of the photos you are checking base to ojive of loaded round to ensure that you have the right bullet seating depth. (Jump to lands) Your setting die is responsible for giving you this measurement.

2 of the photos you are checking base to ojive of bullet. This is part of the bullet sorting. You are checking to see if the baring surface or the boat tail is longer/shorter than your cull measurements. And without a second comparator, you really don't know if its the baring surface or the boat tail thats longer/shorter.

I can't figure out how you got 15th difference in both bullet measurements and loaded rounds. In my simple mind there's only 2 ways these measurements could be the same.

1- The secant of the bullet is 15th off. (Where the die contacts the bullet). Whats the odds of that happening.
To check secant- determine where your die contacts its. (Color a bullet with a sharpie, load it in a case, and use the closest caliber hole on your comparator. It doesn't have to be exact. Its for reference only when bullet sorting)...Its part of my sorting.
2- your setting die has issues. Either manufacturer or operator.

Svashtar said:

Sorry, not my intent Deputy. I just don't get the lecturing tone to OP; the reason for his post is to show us he IS doing QC on his components.

Except for mixing up his terms (COAL) I don't see much to correct him on.

By the way, if this site insisted that every poster be a "long range" shooter or hunter, and that every post be "long range" related, there would be very little activity here, or at least a lot less.

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Nah, you're good. No apology necessary at all, Sir. I rather enjoy (and respect) 'tactful' differences in opinions. I could just feel the 'heat' cranking up on this one...

Perfection in manufacturing does not exist! If it did we could through all our measuring devices and tools to control thoes factors out the window. They manufacture, apply lot numbers for the very reasons we have all the tools we have spent all of our money on. They manufacture and we TUNE our loads and compinsate f or the variables.

P7id10t said:

I think @Doug Herold is doing his part here.

Edit to add:
My experience says otherwise. Please explain if I'm not understanding something.
When I talk about differences within lots, I see metplat as well as tip variations which WILL change the proximity of seating to the lands and COAL.
However, I don't load to shoot critters at 1km, nor for competition. Hence, I don't measure B2O for every round loaded, nor sort my cases or bullets. I do check COAL and test chamber every round. The variations in COAL and rounds that wouldn't chamber are where I found the metplat differences.
For those that pass inspection, I don't shoot well enough to see the effect of these variations at 300 yards.

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You shouldn't be relying on COAL. The ogives vary a little but bullet tips vary a lot. You should be measuring off the ogives for the best accuracy.

Deputy819 said:

.......gonna go get my own bowl of popcorn now. This one is spinning up nicely.

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Yep!

Tiny Tim said:

While I have not personally done this, ultimately bullets from the same lot ought to be consistent in manufacture. Diameters measured at various points along the length of the bullet should be consistent. The least consistent measurement is that of OAL due to meplat deformity resulting from the ejecting pin. So no matter where you "push' the bullet in or measure length, it should be consistent so long as your not using the tip. All of these are "reference points". This is why it is generally ill advised to use say a Sinclair Hex Ogive measuring tool to set up a CBTO and then go to a buddies place and use his Hornady Ogive Comparator to set the same CBTO. It's likely you will have differing results and may or may not be safe.

If bullets change in the reference dimension with your comparator by .005", expect a difference of .005" difference in CBTO even though the seating stem contacts the bullet at a different point than your comparator. Even with this consistency, you may experience a variation of .015 when measuring COAL.

We'd like more consistency, but the realities of life and manufacturing processes say that what we have available to us today is nothing short of incredible. Sorry for the "book".

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I can tell you that doing what you mentioned using the Sinclair hex comparator and the Hornady comparator will result in different dimensions. Prior to buying my Hornady gauge and comparator set I always used the Sinclair comparator. When setting up new loads I notice I was getting a different reading with the Hornady even though it was the same bullets(same lot #) dies were set the same, etc but it was definitely reading different.

I pulled out the Sinclair to check the round I just loaded and it was spot on to my last batch. Seems like there was .012-.015 difference between the two.

Tiny Tim said:

While I have not personally done this, ultimately bullets from the same lot ought to be consistent in manufacture. Diameters measured at various points along the length of the bullet should be consistent. The least consistent measurement is that of OAL due to meplat deformity resulting from the ejecting pin. So no matter where you "push' the bullet in or measure length, it should be consistent so long as your not using the tip. All of these are "reference points". This is why it is generally ill advised to use say a Sinclair Hex Ogive measuring tool to set up a CBTO and then go to a buddies place and use his Hornady Ogive Comparator to set the same CBTO. It's likely you will have differing results and may or may not be safe.

If bullets change in the reference dimension with your comparator by .005", expect a difference of .005" difference in CBTO even though the seating stem contacts the bullet at a different point than your comparator. Even with this consistency, you may experience a variation of .015 when measuring COAL.

We'd like more consistency, but the realities of life and manufacturing processes say that what we have available to us today is nothing short of incredible. Sorry for the "book".

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Thanks for the "book." I don't think that was an excessive amount of information. The part that rang my bell was when you mentioned the possible differences between the measuring tools used. I have used both the Sinclair ogive nut and the Hornady tool, and they have different bevels on them. This means that the measurement is going to differ from one tool to the other. In my notes, I list which tool was used to get the numbers I wrote down, so that I wouldn't screw up later. After a while, I found that the Hornady tool was a little easier to use, since it clamps right onto the caliper and doesn't need to be held in place. ( It also doesn't need to be wiggled into place like the Sinclair hex nut does.) Even using enough thumb pressure on the caliper wheel to negate this need changes the measurement slightly, and slight changes do make a difference. So, I chose to eliminate one variable and just use one tool for the job. I still note which tool was used, since I have no reason not to do so.

Svashtar said:

Sorry, not my intent Deputy. I just don't get the lecturing tone to OP; the reason for his post is to show us he IS doing QC on his components.

Except for mixing up his terms (COAL) I don't see much to correct him on.

By the way, if this site insisted that every poster be a "long range" shooter or hunter, and that every post be "long range" related, there would be very little activity here, or at least a lot less.

I'll go back to lurking now!...

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Long range means different things to different shooters. Long range for me is anything past 400 yards. Others on this forum might chuckle at this. Everything is relative, and I'm never going to get to where I think of 400 yards as being close until I learn all I can from the guys who have advanced past the point where I am before I did. I appreciate the fact that most of the guys here are happy to share their knowledge and experience, and are patient with guys like myself. As for the ones who aren't, maybe they'll learn patience as they grow older. I'm still working on that, and it's a life-long pursuit.

This seems like an old lot vs new by the case designs. This bullet has not been around too long and I am sure they have revised it's length a few times.

trebark said:

This thread was worth reading just to find out about the Sinclair Hex Comparator. So much better than the Hornady that requires changing the bushing for each bullet size.

thanks for draining $20 out of my pocket!

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the hornady tool works much, much more accurately when you use a case that is fire formed to your chamber, the improvement is incredable. Buy your own drill and tap, and they are odd sizes. I sell them for $23 a set, shipped.