Advice for grouping

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Timbersquatch

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Need some advice from those of you that have done the long distance thing for while. So I got a SAKO in a .270; been really happy with this gun. I eventually want this gun to shoot accurately and reliably out to 500 yards. So far, 400yds has been my max with fairly good results. I'm still using factory ammo with hopes of being able to reload and make a round for my gun at some point. My question is how tight of groups were you guys getting with factory ammo before you picked that bullet for your gun and started reloading and perfecting it. I'm gonna throw this out there, my gun DOES NOT like Barnes TSX. I have tried the Berger 130 grain VLD with groups anywhere from .75 MOA to 1.5 MOA with average group size of 1.2 MOA (not sure why there has been that big of range with those groups). And then I have tried the Hornady 130 grain SST with an average group size of .82 MOA which seemed pretty good. Still have yet to try the Hornady ELD X, but given that my gun is a 1:10 twist, I have been hesitant to try a bullet that heavy. So again, how tight a group did you get with factory ammo before you decided that was the right bullet for your gun? How many groups did you shoot to determine that bullet would be the right fit and not just a fluke? I got pics of targets if you guys want them. Any advice would help me narrow it done to find "the one " bullet for my gun.
 
It's been a long time since I've used factory ammo in one of my long range guns. When I want to confirm a good load, I generally shoot three or four 5 shot groups to confirm accuracy then I run 10 shots over a chronograph to make sure velocity is consistent.
 
shooter7 said:
It's been a long time since I've used factory ammo in one of my long range guns. When I want to confirm a good load, I generally shoot three or four 5 shot groups to confirm accuracy then I run 10 shots over a chronograph to make sure velocity is consistent.
Click to expand...

So how tight of a group would you want to see to determine if that's the bullet your gun likes? I got a buddy that reloads and he said if you can consistently get 1 MOA or better @ 100 yards than you have pretty much found the bullet for your gun and then it's time to start fine tuning the load.
 
If you can get sub minute groups at 100 yards, that's a good base line, but it will tell you nothing about what's going on at 500.
Its very possible that it will not even group at 500, or it might.
You have to shoot and see, and what ever is happening out there, you have to determine if it's shooter error, or the ammo. That's where reloading helps, because you can work up a load, fine tune it, and test it. Most of the time, a hell of a lot cheaper than factory ammo.
 
Timbersquatch said:
So how tight of a group would you want to see to determine if that's the bullet your gun likes? I got a buddy that reloads and he said if you can consistently get 1 MOA or better @ 100 yards than you have pretty much found the bullet for your gun and then it's time to start fine tuning the load.
Click to expand...
I prefer to average around .5 MOA or better for several 5 shot groups. For the most part though, if a bullet will shoot into a minute consistently then with some fine tuning, its likely that it can do better.
 
My first "good" rifle was a 270 Original Sendero. Even with the factory ammo it would shoot about an inch. I didn't spend much money trying to find the "one" factory load. Only way to tell is shoot some. Clean it and shoot some more. Good enough is your call. A minute is good to at least 400 yards if that is your happy place. With the long throat on mine, I just couldn't find one that was good enough. If you are made of money and time, keep trying there is bound to be one out there. You should be able to get something in the half minute range with time. You should be looking to do it with several groups over several different days for consistency.


A friend convinced me go try reloading. Once I started reloading, I never looked back. Started with a Lee Loader, borrowed scale and that was all it took. Berger 150s shot very well out to about 1000 yards. I later built another with a fast twist to shoot 165 Matrix and it was another shooter.
 
shooter7 said:
I prefer to average around .5 MOA or better for several 5 shot groups. For the most part though, if a bullet will shoot into a minute consistently then with some fine tuning, its likely that it can do better.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for the advice, 1 MOA seems to be the baseline for fine tuning a bullet. I think I'm close to finding the right fit for my rifle
 
Shane Lindsey said:
My first "good" rifle was a 270 Original Sendero. Even with the factory ammo it would shoot about an inch. I didn't spend much money trying to find the "one" factory load. Only way to tell is shoot some. Clean it and shoot some more. Good enough is your call. A minute is good to at least 400 yards if that is your happy place. With the long throat on mine, I just couldn't find one that was good enough. If you are made of money and time, keep trying there is bound to be one out there. You should be able to get something in the half minute range with time. You should be looking to do it with several groups over several different days for consistency.


A friend convinced me go try reloading. Once I started reloading, I never looked back. Started with a Lee Loader, borrowed scale and that was all it took. Berger 150s shot very well out to about 1000 yards. I later built another with a fast twist to shoot 165 Matrix and it was another shooter.
Click to expand...

Yeah I haven't been ready yet to settle for 1 MOA @ 100 yards since I have gotten better groups than that before. Unfortunately trying a variety of bullets is something i dont have the time or money for. But I have been taking notes on what buellts seem to do well. I'm gonna try the Hornady ELD X soon and see how that does. But ultimately I want to reload, since that will produce the best results hands down.
 
Timbersquatch said:
Need some advice from those of you that have done the long distance thing for while. So I got a SAKO in a .270; been really happy with this gun. I eventually want this gun to shoot accurately and reliably out to 500 yards. So far, 400yds has been my max with fairly good results. I'm still using factory ammo with hopes of being able to reload and make a round for my gun at some point. My question is how tight of groups were you guys getting with factory ammo before you picked that bullet for your gun and started reloading and perfecting it. I'm gonna throw this out there, my gun DOES NOT like Barnes TSX. I have tried the Berger 130 grain VLD with groups anywhere from .75 MOA to 1.5 MOA with average group size of 1.2 MOA (not sure why there has been that big of range with those groups). And then I have tried the Hornady 130 grain SST with an average group size of .82 MOA which seemed pretty good. Still have yet to try the Hornady ELD X, but given that my gun is a 1:10 twist, I have been hesitant to try a bullet that heavy. So again, how tight a group did you get with factory ammo before you decided that was the right bullet for your gun? How many groups did you shoot to determine that bullet would be the right fit and not just a fluke? I got pics of targets if you guys want them. Any advice would help me narrow it done to find "the one " bullet for my gun.
Click to expand...

If your rifle doesn't like factory ammp with a specific bullet that does not mean that it will not like it on reloads, example. My 7mm-08's hate the Hornady Superformance ammo with the 139gr SST, 2" groups at 100 yds, but on reloads they both group Sub Half MOA with this same bullet. One of them does not like the Winchester Supreme with the 140gr Ballisic Silvertip, but on reloads with the same bullet I also get Sub Half MOA groups.

Pick a bullet that you like how it performs on game at both close range and say tje 500 yds ypu mentioned. For 500 yds I highly recommend you find a group under half inch at 100 yds and then test it at 500 yds to make sure it holds the groups together. If it does then you are set to go.
 
I have been shooting 2 factory 270's (MOD 70 Classics) and 2 custom REM 700 (1 skinny Lilja & 1 heavy Lilja barrel). The ELD-x 145 worked fine in the MOD70, MOA to sub MOA. The FED Fusion 150's shoot the best and try to stay under 1/2 MOA in MOD 70 featherweight. Find what your Sako likes best then try it at 500 yards.
 
Thanks everybody, so i tried the ELD X and my gun wasnt fan of them I think they are too heavy for my twist rate. Tried another group of the Berger VLD and got .75 MOA, which is similar to groups i have shot before with this bullet. I think Bergers are gonna be the ones now I just gotta start reloading and fine tuning!!! Thanks for guys' help!!
 
Most of my rifles, and even handguns, have never seen a factory round, but when I was a youngster, I did use a couple of factory loads for a couple of years. I believe I settled on a Federal Premium 30-06 loaded with a Sierra 165GK that shot 3/4-1MOA in a M700.

From what I have seen on the ranges, good factory hunting rifles with a selected factory load and a good shooter can produce fairly good groups, but most are 1MOA at best.
 
I always start with the bullet I want to use. If I prove through testing that my rifle will not shoot that bullet I will go with my number 2 choice. Most of the time I can get the bullet I like to shoot. You can only learn so much from a factory load. But if it shoots a factory load good you will probably be able to load that bullet yourself and be better. But definitely don't exclude a bullet because it didn't shoot good in a factory load. Once you reload you will never use factory again. Although I do shoot factory bulk 5.56 because it's so cheap and shoots good enough for what I do with it. But here is an example of factory load vs hand loads. I shot some 69 gr match kings in a 223. Factory shot 1.5 inches. I thought man gun don't like that bullet. But on a whim I broke some cases down and loaded them back up with the Sierra accuracy load from the book. .05 inch load. Same cases. Same primer. Same seating depth. Different powder. Good luck.
Shep
 
Earlier comment seems right to me about getting less than 1 MOA @ hundred with store bought ammo. That's pretty good for hunting purposes. You can improve on that with reloading for your specific rifle if you have good tools, components and precise methods. By the way, the 130 gr SST in your 270 could be a nice choice. My 300 WSM shoots best groups with 150 gr SST bullets period. Other rifles I have prefer Sierra Gamekings, Nos.Accubonds. Reloading lets you find the bullet, powder, primer, case, and measurements you and your rifle prefers. I won't say optimum cuz don't know what that looks like ... Good for hunting 4 me is consistently hitting coffee cup size saucer at 4-500 yds with my handloads and bullets that will perform well on big game(not match bullets) and a solid rest. Many BR and Long Range guys can do that over longer distances than 500 but my eyes and skills cant do that even using their rifles/loads. Be realistic, smart, and careful and you can become a better shooter with reloading..imho
 
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