Does recoil begin before the bullet exits the muzzle?

Here's a test. Let's take a 30 cal. Put a load behind a 230 and shoot 3 position. Now take that same platform and put a 165 or 190 through it. You will probably be around a 3 to 400 fps differential.

I think the results will speak for themselves. Conversely, throw a 30 or 31 inch tube on and you will see how good form is demanded. Just my 2 bits, but give it a try.
 
One issue that seems to be forgotten here. It is NOT the real or perceived movement of the muzzle crown.

The bore line is the axis. Upon any point there can be a " fulkrum". Keep the the crown position and move the breech either to the side or verticle. You now have changed the bores inclination..right. will that change your POI? Certainly!!
And what's or who's near the breach of the bore? Does that make sense now. Good address and form is a virtue in marksmanship.
 
It is the answer if you want to reduce 50 ft.lbs or recoil. My 6 year old son, 12 year old niece, wife (first time shooting guns in her life was with me), and sister have never shown signs of flinching due to the brake, and none have complained of it. I have however, seen nearly every person shooting a heavy recoiling rifle (including myself) flinch at times.

It may not be THE answer in this scenario, but it would help with recoil management.

Sure, I am guessing they are wearing ear protection. I get what you are saying, but they aren't for everybody and every situation and the only way it would help this situation is of the OP is recoil shy.
 
Thank you everyone! I really appreciate the thought, time, links and advice you all have shared.

I'll watch the videos that Wiscgunner provided and make sure that my fundamentals are on track. About 15 yrs ago I read "the ultimate sniper" and I know much of that info has been forgotten and unpracticed.

I'll try loading and unloading the bipod, vs. pack shooting, and see if I can get them to match, previously I've loaded the bipod heavily because it feels so stable, but I suspect that is causing the major difference in POI compared to off the pack.

A few asked about groups, and that part is really consistent. Bench, bipod and pack are all about 1 moa, the pack might open up a bit more if the shooting position is tough.

Cheek weld and parallax. This could certainly be contributing to the issue, I'm very conscious of the sight picture, but the stock isn't giving me a great weld and thats bothersome.

The recoil is a big issue but I don't think we can attribute the POI shift to flinching because I can put 1 moa on the bullseye with a bipod, take the bipod off, shoot off my pack and have that same group but its just lower. It seems like I can see the muzzle rise happening in the sight picture with the bipod.

I'll see what happens, but it seems likely I'll just have to forego the bipod if I can't get its zero to match my over the pack shots.

And as others have said, a less violent rifle would alleviate much of this dilemma, so I'll pursue that after I've understood the cause more accurately. I'd rather practice my way out than buy my way out.

Regarding the original question, assuming recoil begins when the bullet starts moving as many have suggested and seems plausible - what about the force of the bullet "pushing" the rifle forward due to barrel friction. Imagine pounding a bullet down the barrel with a rod and how much force one would need to apply, does this force cancel the rearward thrust, a little, mostly, completely?
And, how would adding a brake help if the POI shift from recoil is happening before the bullet leaves and the gas hits the brake? Does the air in front of the bullet hit the brake hard enough to lessen in-barrel recoil?
 
A bullet is effectively swaged as it travels down the bore. You now create a lateral force if that would be the correct word. The longer the bearing surface on the pill the more exertion takes place.

As a general rule you will feel a force in the follow through tending to the right. The bbl also twists and that energy becomes stored and released. Now we start talking about harmonics.

You can place tape over your crown and it will not affect accuracy. A brake or re-crowning can affect POI.

A brake is your best friend. Find a position that you feel will be most likely used in real world situation. Stick with it. Six inch bipod legs in 2 foot sage isn't fun. You may want to try a lighter and faster pill for sheer giggles. You may surprise yourself. Don't make it more complicated than it is....have fun.
 
Brakes will not effect POI shift from you changing the guns tracking while the bullet is in the bore BUT it does effect what we do while the bullet is in the bore which is often learned behavior from taking a post bullet exit beating. They do help you hold your form and tracking with big rifles because the major recoil doesn't make you break position and effect tracking.
 
I've got my graduate degrees too, I've taken graduate level mathematics in three disciplines, and I listed my math explicitly, if there is a specific flaw in my logic I'm happy to have it pointed out. More qualitatively there are plenty of quality slo mo videos of rifles firing on YouTube and the barrels do not move meaningfully before the bullet exits, certainly not anything approaching half an inch. Yes the bullet has resistance to moving but the rifle's resistance is 200-fold that number, hence drastically reduced acceleration rearward and therefore movement.
I have a 6 Dasher that is 17 lbs, trigger is 2 ounces and is the only thing touched and the rifle free recoils, rear bag is solid and the butt stock is pounded in, the rifle slides with one finger back and forth, there is .010 of drop in the entire stock of the gun. If during a course of fire I change how that gun moves my groups BLOW up, if my jacket touches the butt stock you'll see it in the group, the movement of the rifle under recoils is a huge, huge factor in bench rest to the point that it drive almost everything!! You can change the sand in your bag and it will measurably change your group, the only way for that to happen is that it changes the way the rifle moves in recoil with the bullet in the barrel. I'd say I've put more effort into how my gun moves during recoil to tighten up my Dasher groups than I put into the load. It's HUGE!!
 
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Just keep slinging lead down range and upgrading until you find what works for you. There is no panacea, when it comes to this discipline. It's muscle memory and doing things consistently. You can shoot upside down between your legs and be the best shooter in the world. All you have to do is repeat what you did the shot before.o_O That's what makes this so fun!
 
There are a lot of good and a few incorrect responses here. As an engineer, I figure I should at least weigh in with a few technical observations about the issue itself and the comments that have been provided.

Yes, the rifle moves well before the bullet exits the barrel. In fact, it is physically impossible to stop the rifle from moving before the bullet exits the barrel. To emphasize this point, the rifle will recoil and move even if the butt is placed up against a concrete barrier - in this case most of the movement will be in the form of spring compression in the stock, but it WILL move. In fact, even an infinitely stiff rifle will move the concrete before the bullet leaves the barrel - all in proportion to the mass ratio. It's all physics.

Rifle movement and Rifle Recoil both begin the moment the sear starts dropping. As someone correctly pointed out earlier, the rifle actually accellerates rearward as the firing pin moves forward, forward when the pin hits the primer, and then rearward again as the bullet starts to accelerate down the barrel. The first two movements are minor, and the latter is major but not so simple.

Although its easy to assume that the biggest POI influence is the recoil itself, it really isn't! PERFECT recoil (straight rearward in reaction to the bullets movement straight forward) only adds a minor negative component to the bullets forward velocity. It's the other movements, mostly caused by the recoil, that result in the most significant poi changes. The most important of these is the displacement of the barrel's muzzle caused by reactive forces in the stock, rest, shooter's shoulder and hand, and by various rifle components. As someone else pointed out, even barrel twisting caused by the bullet's rotational accelleration has some influence. In fact, it is important to realize that barrel vibration (all vibrations are movements) is one of the key reasons for doing nodal accuracy development. But that's a whole nuther discussion.

Does recoil influence POI? ABSOLUTELY IT DOES! Not minimally either! Even small calibers are influenced by it, but the bigger the caliber the bigger the effect. As someone else said, try shooting with a hand on the scope pushing down vs none, or try shooting with a firm hold vs no hold, or with shoulder pressure and without, or as the OP already noted - using different rest types.... These are all evidence that recoil influences poi through the OTHER forces and resulting movements that the recoil forces generate.

Am I surprised by the magnitude of the changes that the OP experienced? Not in the least! Using simple trigonometry, a 6 MOA poi shift is only 40 thousands displacement in the line of the bore at the muzzle vs the line of sight when the trigger was pulled. In reality, trigonometry significantly understates the effect because muzzle displacement is not linear. However, it is sufficient to illustrate the point. Just 40 thou of muzzle displacement is more than enough to put a bullet 6 MOA off course. 40 thou might seem like a lot to some, but if that's all a muzzle ever moved, most shooters probably wouldn't see or notice it because it's so small compared to the rearward recoil movement that they both see and feel.

Hope that helps
 
Thank you Susquatch. I too have been plagued with this same delima like all.
The cure I found was go lighter and faster. If I'm working from a known hide, I use my heavy pills. But I know I will be limited to my position and style if shooting.

If I am unsure or " freelancing" I go lighter and faster. Example; 338 cal try a 250 from a 300 grain. In 30 cal, try a 190 from a 210, 215 or 230. All are lethal and will drop a target like a bad habit. You may find as I, that POI shifts are less and "bearable" in the same platform.

We all get on these fads, many are good. But always remember, when we get something we usually give up something. Give it a try.
 
With bigger case and bigger bullet is harder to shoot good.
It is not same shoot with 223 vs 300 win mag or 338 lm .....
Let try free recoiling bigger caliber and see groups.

I found in my case that is very much variable in holding the gun and with stronger calibers there is more pronounced.
 
When I first used shooting sticks, I found the rocking that you describe worsened my patterns and I had to develop a way to anchor the rear of the stock better to use them. I find that my pack is better than sticks, if I can support it on something high enough to shoot from it, but that is rare. As far as recoil, I use excellent recoil pads on everything with no need for a brake and as mentioned, just train as much as I can.

+1 on when something starts moving, there is a opposite and equal force.
After overcoming inertia.
 
With bigger case and bigger bullet is harder to shoot good.
It is not same shoot with 223 vs 300 win mag or 338 lm .....
Let try free recoiling bigger caliber and see groups.

I found in my case that is very much variable in holding the gun and with stronger calibers there is more pronounced.
I free recoil my 28 Nosler, 338 RUM and 338 Lapua AI all will shoot small but they are built for it with very effective brakes and stout bipods and good rear bags.
 
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