Mainmechanic
Well-Known Member
Recently acquired a 35 Whelen imp. Long time reloader myself never any fireforming though. My question is could somebody explain to me their process for forming these from 30/06 brass ?
35 whelen improved fireforming.
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MagnumManiac
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I form using COW (Cream of Wheat), a fast pistol/shotgun powder and a plug of TP (Toilet Paper).
The formula I use is take the average volume of the case with a max load with NORMAL powder, reduce that charge 90% and start loading with that charge of Universal or Clays, load case, place paper wad over powder, fill to just below the neck with COW and twist the TP into the neck to fill and seal it. Most often, the TP is tight enough when it squeaks a little as you poke it in with a pencil.
Keep increasing the powder by .5gr increments until the cases are fully formed, but NOT SHARPLY formed.
Trust me, you can have a pressure excursion when fireforming, I know, I've done it.
Just go slowly, and stop when all the case is formed, at the lower charge weights, you may find the the lower third of the case doesn't form at all. If this happens, put then aside and fireform with a load that gets the other cases fully formed.
Hope this helps.
Cheers.
The formula I use is take the average volume of the case with a max load with NORMAL powder, reduce that charge 90% and start loading with that charge of Universal or Clays, load case, place paper wad over powder, fill to just below the neck with COW and twist the TP into the neck to fill and seal it. Most often, the TP is tight enough when it squeaks a little as you poke it in with a pencil.
Keep increasing the powder by .5gr increments until the cases are fully formed, but NOT SHARPLY formed.
Trust me, you can have a pressure excursion when fireforming, I know, I've done it.
Just go slowly, and stop when all the case is formed, at the lower charge weights, you may find the the lower third of the case doesn't form at all. If this happens, put then aside and fireform with a load that gets the other cases fully formed.
Hope this helps.
Cheers.
shortgrass
Well-Known Member
First, I would NOT be using .30/06 brass. .35 Whelen brass is readily available. Necking .30/06 to .35 will result in the neck walls (of the brass) being thinned, resulting in a sloppy fit in the chamber and a light bullet pull. Chamber neck dimensions are generally quit generous, and you'll be over working the case necks when you re-size them. Proper bullet pull amounts to the tension that is applied to the bullet. How hard is it to "pull" the bullet or in other words how much pressure does it take to push the bullet from the case mouth? Too light a pull, and ignition may suffer. Too heavy a pull and pressure may spike. Both conditions can cause accuracy problems, caused by a large extreme spread in velocity. With .35 Whelen brass, if the chamber is properly head spaced, there should be a slight "crush" felt (a slight resistance) when closing the bolt (if you do this with a .35 Whelen case that is not loaded it is easier to feel. Remove the firing pin so you're not 'feeling' the trigger/cocking piece relationship, and be sure you're not forcing the extractor over the case rim). This indicates that the case is "trapped" between the bolt face and the neck/shoulder junction in the chamber. If this condition exists, as it should, load the .35 Whelen cases as you normally would and fire them. The cases will be fully "improved" as Ackley intended. Accuracy can be very good with fire form loads, so don't waste the opportunity to "put 'her on target". It certainly 'aint rocket science or nuclear engineering. P.O. Ackley designed fire forming to be simple, where factory loaded cartridges can be fired in the improved chamber, and come out in the improved form. If the .35 Whelen cases don't 'crush', there are ways around that.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
This is great advice !!!!
Sometimes fire forming cases out of other cases is necessary. But in this case it is not, even if you have extra 30/06 cases the trouble and life of the cases will not be worth it.
Buy new cases and load and shoot/hunt. fewer rounds through your barrel is always better and If sized and loaded as shortgrass recommended, accuracy can be outstanding.
Midway has 35 Whelen brass on sale for the same as 30/06 brass and it will be head stamped correctly, and will not get thinned by sizing.
https://www.midwayusa.com/s?targetL...1&userItemsPerPage=48&persistedItemsPerPage=0
I fire form lots of brass, but only when I "Have to" when I can I only buy cases with the proper case head stamp so no mistakes are made.
J E CUSTOM
Mainmechanic
Well-Known Member
Great advise on using 35 W brass. Do have plenty of 30/06. Will save that for those rifles. Shortgrass mentioned how the Ackley parent case is supposed to slightly crush if the chamber is cut right to avoid headspace issues. Not sure if that is the case here yet if so are you referring to using a false shoulder to headspace off ? Thanks gentlemen
shortgrass
Well-Known Member
No false shoulder needed if head spaced correctly. The Ackley chamber should be .004 to .006" shorter than the parent cartridge. The "GO" gauge becomes the "NO-GO". The distance from the bolt face to the neck/shoulder junction in the chamber is the 'critical' dimension. The .35 Whelen brass should be longer from the base to the neck/shoulder junction than the bolt face to the neck shoulder junction in the chamber. That will cause some resistance when closing the bolt. The idea is to force the cartridge case to expand at the front, not in the rear, head area.
shortgrass
Well-Known Member
Lots of ways get talked about on the web, 'cause lots of chambers have been cut too long. Can cause some confusion when it really is such a simple thing. I'll stick to the way P.O. Ackley designed his "improved" cartridges.
Mainmechanic
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Will have to purchase the appropriate gauges to check the chamber. If there is not a interference fit with new brass would you recommend setting the barrel back and rechambering correctly or using a false shoulder ? Very familiar with that having used on my belted magnums for years. Or do you have other suggestions ? Thanks.
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
If it's correctly chambered... chamber round, pull trigger... If it's not correctly chambered, get it set back to correct chamber dimensions and see first step...
As to loading re-formed 30-06 cases... go for it... I have a ruger Hawkeye in 35whelen (regular chamber) and it is one of my best shooting rifles. I use primarily a batch of ww 30-06 cases I bought over 20 years ago at wally world as clearance 30-06 ammo. They were ran over a tapered expander and squared up when they were needed for the whelen. As to neck dimensions, my rp 35whelen brass measures .381" with a speer 220 fp in the neck; my ww 30-06 re-form whelen ammo measures …. you guessed it.... .381" with a speer 220fp in the neck. The accuracy issues really suck though. The whelen shot a .300" group at 200 followed by a .300 ish group at 100 (by fellow member Jweiel) the last time I had it out when conditions were decent; that was a couple years back in remmy reformed brass... The conditions really have to suck before she'll even get to a moa rifle.
As to loading re-formed 30-06 cases... go for it... I have a ruger Hawkeye in 35whelen (regular chamber) and it is one of my best shooting rifles. I use primarily a batch of ww 30-06 cases I bought over 20 years ago at wally world as clearance 30-06 ammo. They were ran over a tapered expander and squared up when they were needed for the whelen. As to neck dimensions, my rp 35whelen brass measures .381" with a speer 220 fp in the neck; my ww 30-06 re-form whelen ammo measures …. you guessed it.... .381" with a speer 220fp in the neck. The accuracy issues really suck though. The whelen shot a .300" group at 200 followed by a .300 ish group at 100 (by fellow member Jweiel) the last time I had it out when conditions were decent; that was a couple years back in remmy reformed brass... The conditions really have to suck before she'll even get to a moa rifle.
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
For the heck of it just now I just made a dummy round (whelen) with a 270 (fed brass) as a parent case... I ran it through my 30 year old rcbs 30-06 dies then ran it through the 35 whelen dies and trimmed to square at 2.50" This one hasn't been fired yet so she may not be entirely square but measures .384" at the base of the neck and .382" at the mouth. I just do not see a heck of a lot of difference it this cartridge no matter what it's made from. I hesitate to use 270 or 25-06 brass as the brass expansion may not be uniform, but I'm not seeing it on on a wet lubed casing.
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
To be fair, in most cartridges shortgrass and je are entirely correct on not bothering with reforming... The whelen was developed as a poor man's magnum though, so dimensions favor reusing brass. I have never tried mil-spec brass in my rifle, and see no real reason to as I've got enough reformed ww brass to last me the next 20 years or more.
Mainmechanic
Well-Known Member
Thanks for time and effort Lefty. I must have several hundred 30/06 casings. First thing Monday I will be ordering a set of headspace gauges to see what I am working with. I see Manson offers the improved ones. I have read several places about the 35 Whelen improved not gaining to much over the standard version. Not really concerned about a performance gain with the improved but I have read that the improved version is much easier on the brass ? Any thoughts on this before I order the gauges? Really considering rechambering to standard if this needs addressed. Thanks again
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
I shoot a standard and haven't lost a 30-06 case yet ( my brother had a couple of whelen stamped casings crack)... I've only got a few cycles on them so far though. I'm using rl15 with a 220 speer and netting around 2700 fps. I've also tried a 259 grain mono (think barnes tsx) that Edd sent me a few of to work with. That man's pills shoot well; I simply dropped one into the barrel and found the jamb, kicked it out, and ran it up from start load for a 250 mono up to where I thought I'd hit 2500 fps or so. Pressure topped at 2400 fps and the rifle was sub moa with no seating depth adj. or powder changes. rl15 all the way so far... I have a keg each of 4320 and 4895, but rl15 works so why play around?
My brother originally owned the rifle (he wanted a larger bore with power that didn't bowl him off the bench)... I suggested the whelen as ruger was making the Hawkeye in it at the time. He called me up one day offering to sell, and I said yup... One of these days it'll prolly find it's way back to him ( I have a 338 and a 375h@h) but I'll shoot it until then.
My brother originally owned the rifle (he wanted a larger bore with power that didn't bowl him off the bench)... I suggested the whelen as ruger was making the Hawkeye in it at the time. He called me up one day offering to sell, and I said yup... One of these days it'll prolly find it's way back to him ( I have a 338 and a 375h@h) but I'll shoot it until then.
sodakota
Well-Known Member
I have a 375 Whelen AI. I use both 35 Whelen brass and 30-06 brass. Both work equally well.
However it is more work with the 30-06 brass. My method using '06 brass is as follows. I open the neck in stages: .313,.338,. 358, .375.
When I first formed brass I opened the brass up to .416 and then ran the brass through a FL sizing die. That didn't work as well and I quit doing that.
I have a lot of cast bullets and cheap jacketed seconds. I started using them for fire forming. I finally ended up using full power jacketed loads. These loads fire formed and grouped very well - also they hit same point of impact.
However it is more work with the 30-06 brass. My method using '06 brass is as follows. I open the neck in stages: .313,.338,. 358, .375.
When I first formed brass I opened the brass up to .416 and then ran the brass through a FL sizing die. That didn't work as well and I quit doing that.
I have a lot of cast bullets and cheap jacketed seconds. I started using them for fire forming. I finally ended up using full power jacketed loads. These loads fire formed and grouped very well - also they hit same point of impact.
