Need some guidance..

L.Sherm said:

Your gonna get a lot of opinions but if you wanna Elk hunt I would go 300WM as stated on other threads ammo everywhere and a lot of choices, im kinda of surprised whoever told you to get a 6.5 creed for elk. Will it kill one sure it will but in my opinion the 300WM is a better option than the creed. As far as brakes im not a fan of radials because if you lay down to shoot it throws crap in you face. do some research and decide for yourself if you like a blended one with the profile of your barrel or a stepped one it may depend on the dia. of your barrel which style you can go with.

Click to expand...

Sherm you are 100% correct. This is going to be a rant, but I'm just sick of the CM craziness, or the cartridge de-jour madness. New calibers are always subject to "be al - best all" by those who have them and seem to want support for their choice by selling others on it too. Yes, the military is high on the 6.5 CM. Yes, it has great BC. Yes, it has a place in hunting. Yes, they will kill people. People are generally easier than Elk or moose or bear.


The 6.5 craze is like a pyramid scheme. I got one so I need to get all my friends in the deal too. A 6.5 will for certain kill an Elk. So will a 22 rim fire or a 22-250 or a .223. None however are appropriate for the job. The 6.5 CM numbers look great but its still a .264" - 140 grain bullet v the .308"-200 grain bullet. Targets are not generally effected by time of flight or inadequate mass or an imperfect shot. And target don't usually move. The trick is to deliver that power with a less than perfect shot. And for that, bigger is ALWAYS better. The fact that a creedmore will kill an elk is not the question. A person can gut shoot an elephant with one and likley kill it. When we hunt there is a life at the end of the rainbow. We all owe that life the respect to harvest it as quickly and painlessly as possible. Always shoot enough gun. I generally shoot more than enough. Of course I'm not interested in being fashionable. I have several 6.5s. Would not hunt much more than whitetale or pigs with any of them, given the option of using a good 30 cal or larger.


Want to shoot 1/2 MOA @ 1000 yards do that. The odds 95% of mountain weight rifles will put 5 in 5" at 1000 are slim. Want to hunt, use enough gun to kill with even a marginal shot.

The 300 WSM is the right cartridge for elk at all reasonable distances.
2000ftlb@500yds. 1500ftlb@1000yds for both. The 6.5 will or may pass thru but the 30 call will break bone and impart more shock.
Hit Bone with a 6.5 on a 700+ lb animal at 600-800 yards and good luck. Guy wants to shoot 1000-1500 yards and also stop elk in its tracks at 700, buy a 300UM, 30-378, 338UM, 338 Lapua. Whatever a 140 grain 6.5 anything going 2700ft/sec will do, a 200 grain 30 cal going 2700ft/sec will do better.
There is a reason they make soooo many different cartridges and coincidentally throughout history, as animals got bigger strangley so did bullet diameter.

Gcan said:

There is a reason they make soooo many different cartridges ....

Click to expand...

The reason is to sell stuff. It's that simple.

Gcan said:

There is a reason they make soooo many different cartridges ....

Click to expand...

The reason is to sell stuff. It's that simple.

FIGJAM said:

Oh hell, another creed thread...Your buddy is pulling your leg, or this is the typical hunting story where the elk started out getting killed at 600 yards and the distance has grown over time to 1550. I wasn't there, and I am actually a huge fan of the 6.5 bullets, but I would be inclined not to believe your buddy.

Click to expand...

Got to agree FIGJAM

Swatman05 said:

I will be moving to Utah from Oklahoma in March. I definitely will be getting into Elk hunting and I was told to go with a 6.5 Creedmore. My main goal is primarily to hunt Elk and do some long range shooting at a range with yardage up to 2,000yds. I was also contemplating building a 300WM and putting a good muzzle brake on it to help with recoil. With me being new to Elk hunting I told the gentleman I don't plan on shooting past 400-500yds. I'm just concerned with penetration with the 6.5 Creedmore on a large animal. Also, what would you guy's recommend for a good muzzle brake? Thanks for any input gentlemen.

Click to expand...

Hey, if you want to hunt elk, my first choice is Utah. That state is hard to beat when it comes to huge bulls. That's something you probably know having lived there before. I'm 69 years old and live in Colorado, 19 miles from the Utah line. I've killed a number of elk. So many I've lost count. I've seen more than one bull killed in southern Utah that scored over 400. I have killed a number of elk with a 6mm Rem and although they were one shot kills, i would not recommend that cartridge for elk hunting. I just finished writing a letter to a friend on the use of a 6.5 Creedmore for elk hunting. To sum up that letter; the 6.5 creed is a fine cartridge, but it's not what it's being made up to be. It's also a trendy cartridge that has garnered a magic reputation fueled by a lot of BS. BTW I'm a stock maker, so I here this nonsense every day. You have already received a lot of good advice to this post. The 300 WM is a good choice and a lot of your fellow Utah elk hunters will be using that cartridge also.

For a gun with its intended use being elk hunting I'd never go with a 6.5 creedmoor and honestly I'd never go with anything in the 6.5. Yes it can do it but so can a 223. I'd step up to 7 mag at minimum but a 300 win mag is my go to. But i like recoil

I know you said you arent concerned or afraid of recoil. Thats good bit also a non-issue when you are actually making your "shot". You will not feel it. Short of the old days when I was poor and put a cheap 2.6" eye relief scope on a 300WM. I still have the scar....and the antlers!
But you also said you were getting a brake so target shooting will be a non-issue also. A $35-$45 set of walker (or any other) set of electronic ear muffs from amazon and you are set at the range.
Since I am super poor hearing (not just hearing my wife) thanks to the army, I actually wore mine when I got my elk in Colorado in 2017. I could hear everything. They were still bugleing so everyone I heard seems like it was right behind me.
Anyway, it sounds like you might be going to the 300RUM. A great choice. My cousin has one and has killed 4 of his 6 elk with it. And a few deer also. Start clooecting brass now. Anywhere and everywhere. Gunbroker is a good place to find once fired for fun at the range stuff.
Attach pics when you get your gun!

GERDES G said:

I know you said you arent concerned or afraid of recoil. Thats good bit also a non-issue when you are actually making your "shot". You will not feel it. Short of the old days when I was poor and put a cheap 2.6" eye relief scope on a 300WM. I still have the scar....and the antlers!
But you also said you were getting a brake so target shooting will be a non-issue also. A $35-$45 set of walker (or any other) set of electronic ear muffs from amazon and you are set at the range.
Since I am super poor hearing (not just hearing my wife) thanks to the army, I actually wore mine when I got my elk in Colorado in 2017. I could hear everything. They were still bugleing so everyone I heard seems like it was right behind me.
Anyway, it sounds like you might be going to the 300RUM. A great choice. My cousin has one and has killed 4 of his 6 elk with it. And a few deer also. Start clooecting brass now. Anywhere and everywhere. Gunbroker is a good place to find once fired for fun at the range stuff.
Attach pics when you get your gun!

Click to expand...

Sorry about the spelling. Dyslexic thumbs.

Looks like your recommendations finally slowed down a bit. You got lots of good recommendations. Looks like 80% or better that mentioned the 6.5 were against it's use for Elk. I feel the same. Good caliber just not the best for a newbie Elk hunter for sure. 7 remington mag and up are your best bet as meany have said. You seem to really like the more powerful guns so if that is true I think you might be happier with the 300 Rum more so than the 300 mag. Just remember though that the Rum will cost you more to use, is harder to find brass for and kicks more and would likely be a heavier gun as well. You will find there will be plenty of accessories you will need too so hope you can find some cash or have good credit. But I would go a little at a time with those items to include: Rifle scope, rangefinder, hand held GPS,binoculars,spotting scope, good hunting boots and cammo clothing etc. If you hike in you might want the following: Tent, raingear, backpack, warm sleeping bag, lightweight camp stove, freeze dried food etc. If you reload you will need a press, dies, micrometer, reloading book or books, case trimmer, powder measurer/thrower, case prep accessories like a tumbler, powder, bullets, primers case lube and on and on. I gathered all my junk over the years. It might sound overwhelming but this is what happens when you get serious about hunting. So if you think you know what gun you want by now you just need to find the money to buy it.

I have both the 6.5 Creedmoor and a 300WM in ultralight rifles for deer and elk hunting. I have youngsters who hunt with me, and they prefer to shoot the creedmoor, but only by a slim margin... as my 300wm has a great brake on it. My oldest took his first cow elk this season with the 300WM at 330 yards (one shot, she never took a step). My other boy took his first buck at 200 yards with the CM, again one shot (but it did take a few steps ). Both get the job done within the yardages the particular bullets were designed for.

One major thing though; Consider the terminal ballistics of the bullet you are shooting. We have been shooting the OTC Hornady ELD-X in both rifles. That is a bullet that was designed to expand down to 1600FPS. However, in regards to the story about the person who shot the elk with the creedmoor at 1500 plus yards??? That would be a very dicy proposition... because at that yardage, that little bullet has lost all but about 1200 feet per second of its velocity. Even the Nosler Accubond Long Range (ABLR) was only designed to reliably expand down to about 1300feet per second. So, at longer ranges, the creedmoor will be more likely to just "poke" neat little 6.5mm holes... and that is no good for quick ethical kill shots.

Another consideration is the "oomph" on target at the various ranges... my creedmoor at 1500 yards has about 500ft pounds of energy at the target. Many would argue that is not enough for deer or elk (I think the energy scale shows 1000 ftlbs for deer and 1500 ftlbs for elk). Personally, I think that is hogwash, as a 10mm pistol at point blank range is putting out about the same 500-600ftlbs of energy, and many regard that as adequate for defense against bears... just sayin... I think a much better rating would be the "KPS" scoring system (Killing power score) which accounts for velocity, bullet weight, energy, sectional density of the bullet, and the diameter of the bullet. On that scale, that 6.5CM bullet still rates a "13" on the scale at 1500 yards (similar to a 300BLK at point blank range).

Its been mentioned elsewhere here, but one cartridge to consider is the 28 Nosler. If it is really pushing a 162-175gr bullet at 3125-3175fps, then it can contend with even the 338 Lapua in wind drift, bullet drop, and max range for velocity expansion... all while still putting more than enough "oomph" on target, even at extended range. Consider it still rates a "14" on the KPS scale at a mile (1760 yards).

Ive put together a spreadsheet that lays out the "math" behind a number of suitable elk cartridge options... including the 6.5 and the 300wm.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/156KStH-VKLIwILKsmubbCZDm6XzUvyz47oro0nR5hxY/edit?usp=sharing

FIGJAM said:

I don't disagree with everything you are saying, I actually just reread it am probably disagreeing with more than I originally thought - the 223 comparison seems a little out there tho...you are comparing a 140 gr 6.5 cal bullet to a .55gr 224 bullet, given equal energy, the larger diameter heavier bullet will penetrate more and cause more damage. Not all energy is equal.

Also, if you hit an elk properly with a 6.5 creedmoor the elk might be in the next county over when it dies? If it is running across county lines it wasn't hit properly.

As soon as you start getting into penetration and busting bone and deflecting off of bone, sectional density and bullet selection play a bigger role.

Does the 35 whelen really equal the 338 win mag? I don't shoot either and am asking the question, seems a little questionable to me and considering the larger case capacity I doubt it, but could be wrong.

Click to expand...

Hello Figjam, I hunt almost exclusively with a 35 Whelen, using Barnes TSX 225gr bullets. I would never put the Whelen up against the 338 WinMag. Personally IMHO I believe that the 338 is far more powerful than the Whelen when you get out past the 300 yard range. I will put the Whelen on a par with the 338 WinMag out to the 200 yard range. After 200 yards the BC of the 338 really surpasses the Whelen's. I'm getting around 2700fps at the muzzle with 225gr Barnes TSX and 58.5gr Winchester 748. But....for me recoil is an issue, and at the bench the 338 WinMag "truly" surpasses the felt recoil of the Whelen!!! I like Ruger 77s, the last 338WinMag that I owned was a Ruger 77, I fired three rounds out of the rifle and sold it. I usually will put a "kickeez" recoil pad on my rifles, the recoil of this rifle was so bad that it wasn't even a consideration.

The 6.5 needmore is just the latest fad this too will pass, get a 300 wm you won't be disappointed.

Hard to beat a full sized 300WM. If the weight is an issue then buy a 300 Short WM. This is one case where size does matter.

Johnny blade said:

The 6.5 needmore is just the latest fad this too will pass, get a 300 wm you won't be disappointed.

Click to expand...

Unlikely with all the support it has - from the military to the rifle and ammo manufacturers.