Please explain?
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6.5 Creedmor- the Holy Grail?
- Thread starter fariswm
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notahd
Well-Known Member
The 6.5 Creed is great for long range steel and target shooting, but terminal ballistics doesn't play much part in shooting steel or paper. If I'm going to pay for the hunt of a lifetime I believe the old 300 or 338 Win Mag will go along
I like the 6.5CM having used it when I began shooting PRS, but I personally don't believe it to be the Holy Grail considering the host of other good 6.5's in its capacity range. I quickly switched to the 6.5x47 Lapua for competition, and never adopted the 6.5CM for my LR hunting, preferring the larger 6.5 cases at higher velocities. The 6.5CM's initial intent and positioning was targeted at the PRS competitor. It's rapid success in this sport was one of the primary drivers behind its growth and revenues. Interestingly, the trend in the PRS circles has done a complete reversal compared to just a couple of years ago.... with the 6mm's being quickly adopted in preference to the 6.5....90% to 10%! The last survey had the caliber preferences flipped, with the 6,5CM in a strong position. While I think the 6.5CM is now well established, it will be interesting to observe the impact of this shift on its rapid growth curve.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/12/14/rifle-caliber/
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/12/14/rifle-caliber/
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FIGJAM
Well-Known Member
Those heavy for caliber high bc 6.5 bullets seem to retain a lot of energy down range. The 160gr matrix has like a 0.74 bc doesn't it? I would think at any decent velocity those will perform better or just as well as any 7mm or 308 caliber bullet as far retained energy at long ranges.
hunter67wa
Well-Known Member
Maybe somebody should have told the Swede's that the 6.5 caliber it is not enough rifle for moose over 100 years ago.
adam32
Well-Known Member
Think bullet selection...
LDHunter
Well-Known Member
Well.... I have a totally different take. I have always doubted the energy calculations and have always believed and see the results of larger calibers vs. smaller calibers but that doesn't mean I'm a proponent of the 45-70 or anything like that.
My experience working with an outfitter for 3 years and having been on several guided hunts for elk left me with 3 truths.
1. Learn to shoot and have some quality experience shooting game under field conditions.
2. Use the cartridge well suited to the game you're hunting.
3. Sometimes you do EVERYTHING right and elk are still not impressed.
Number 2 is what I'd like to address here. I've found that elk are MUCH MORE OFTEN impressed if you're shooting a 7mm or larger well constructed bullet at or nearly at magnum velocities.
I consider a 6.5 anything a too light for elk and even heavy mature mule deer. For every success story that's told for hunting there are at least 5 that were never told about failure to kill game. Hunters are worse liars than fishermen and although I think most people here on LRH are basically honest they always seem to be too stubborn to consider any cartridge other than their pet cartridges that they own to be any good and always seem to rise up and get insulted when anyone dares to sling mud at those cartridges.
All centerfire rifle cartridges have the perfect size and toughness of game that they're best for and the 6.5 Creed or ANY other 6.5 is light for shots on elk unless they're standing broadside which is a poor criteria for determining a good hunting cartridge on public lands.
My elk rifle for finishing off wounded elk and for hunting my own elk was a 350Rem Mag and it was always enough rifle even for barely wounded elk with their adrenaline running wide open. I saw a lot of 7mm Magnum and 300 Winney shots taken and if the elk were hit properly they cooperated by hitting the ground in short order. A 338 is probably the perfect elk cartridge but it's a bit more recoil than most hunters can handle and still maintain accuracy.
This strongly reminds me of the arguments about the 223 being all you need for whitetail and hogs.... Yes... With perfect bullet placement on a standing animal out to 150 yards they're pretty reliable. Otherwise it's "BANG... Where'd he go? Dang!!! Did I miss again?" LOL
My experience working with an outfitter for 3 years and having been on several guided hunts for elk left me with 3 truths.
1. Learn to shoot and have some quality experience shooting game under field conditions.
2. Use the cartridge well suited to the game you're hunting.
3. Sometimes you do EVERYTHING right and elk are still not impressed.
Number 2 is what I'd like to address here. I've found that elk are MUCH MORE OFTEN impressed if you're shooting a 7mm or larger well constructed bullet at or nearly at magnum velocities.
I consider a 6.5 anything a too light for elk and even heavy mature mule deer. For every success story that's told for hunting there are at least 5 that were never told about failure to kill game. Hunters are worse liars than fishermen and although I think most people here on LRH are basically honest they always seem to be too stubborn to consider any cartridge other than their pet cartridges that they own to be any good and always seem to rise up and get insulted when anyone dares to sling mud at those cartridges.
All centerfire rifle cartridges have the perfect size and toughness of game that they're best for and the 6.5 Creed or ANY other 6.5 is light for shots on elk unless they're standing broadside which is a poor criteria for determining a good hunting cartridge on public lands.
My elk rifle for finishing off wounded elk and for hunting my own elk was a 350Rem Mag and it was always enough rifle even for barely wounded elk with their adrenaline running wide open. I saw a lot of 7mm Magnum and 300 Winney shots taken and if the elk were hit properly they cooperated by hitting the ground in short order. A 338 is probably the perfect elk cartridge but it's a bit more recoil than most hunters can handle and still maintain accuracy.
This strongly reminds me of the arguments about the 223 being all you need for whitetail and hogs.... Yes... With perfect bullet placement on a standing animal out to 150 yards they're pretty reliable. Otherwise it's "BANG... Where'd he go? Dang!!! Did I miss again?" LOL
There are no magic calibers except maybe the 16 inch naval gun.
There is always a muzzle brake with electronic ear protection. Turn the cannon into a 22 as far as recoil. Seems to work for the 50 cal.
With my 6.5AI, sure. It'd match up within certain ranges bullet depending. But the 160 pretty much maxs out so far for the 6.5, and I wonder if the CM could even stabilize the round.
At one time, I toyed with trying Sierras 150grn but saw they recommended 7.5 twist or faster. Mine is an 8 twist so I dropped the idea. Talking with my smith, he said that was there primarily for the CM shooters. He said can't get enough velocity to reasonably stabilize the bullet w/o a faster twist. Since then I've been shooting 142-152grn range and doing reasonably well at longer shots (paper & steel)....and yeah, higher velocities (2950-3100fps range).
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Yep, it's been around longer than our venerable .30-06.
I'd guess the 155-160 grain 6.5 s would do better 200yds & under
FIGJAM
Well-Known Member
I just have one last thought...I am one of those nerdy numbers guys. I am always crunching numbers, at work and even when it comes to ballistics. I believe that any kill comes down to energy on impact, bullet performance, and shot placement. We always talk about minimum standards for energy - you can run the numbers and see what they are, this is simple math. Likewise you can do some research on bullet construction and choose the ones that work the best for the type of hunting you want to do, which also feeds into the ballistic calculator. Shot placement is on the hunter, no number crunching can help with that, just trigger time and practice.
I have a hard time when people make claims or voice opinions as facts without being able to support them with real data. A lot of this is personal preference and I think the package these calibers are wrapped in, i.e. the custom rifle or the winchester M70 that dad left you when he died, or Sendero SFII in 25-06 that you busted your butt and saved your money for, or the first rifle you got as a kid that was a 270 win etc., have a huge influence in our preferences. We are all a product of our environment.
Just because you or someone you knew loses an elk with a certain caliber is not a reflection of that particular calibers capability. For example, my buddy made a **** poor shot on a bull elk while I was with him with a 338 win mag at 300 yards. The bull ran off. We followed it on horseback for a couple miles and finally shot it a couple more times to finish it off. So does that mean the 338 win mag is a crappy elk gun? I didn't draw that conclusion. My buddy has never heard the end of being a crappy shot though..lol.
I think it is just important to remember, we all have personal preferences, none of them are wrong. We just can't confuse those with real numbers and facts. If we agree on a min ft lbs of energy to kill an animal, whatever that number is, and a cartridge is capable of producing those numbers, then it is adequate. That ft lbs of energy alone should determine the cartridges effective range, based on the ballistic table and the energy stated at given yardage. Then we need to start to look at shot placement and other things that are in the hunters control.
I have hunted with many "experienced" hunters that can't shoot a rifle worth a ****.
I have a hard time when people make claims or voice opinions as facts without being able to support them with real data. A lot of this is personal preference and I think the package these calibers are wrapped in, i.e. the custom rifle or the winchester M70 that dad left you when he died, or Sendero SFII in 25-06 that you busted your butt and saved your money for, or the first rifle you got as a kid that was a 270 win etc., have a huge influence in our preferences. We are all a product of our environment.
Just because you or someone you knew loses an elk with a certain caliber is not a reflection of that particular calibers capability. For example, my buddy made a **** poor shot on a bull elk while I was with him with a 338 win mag at 300 yards. The bull ran off. We followed it on horseback for a couple miles and finally shot it a couple more times to finish it off. So does that mean the 338 win mag is a crappy elk gun? I didn't draw that conclusion. My buddy has never heard the end of being a crappy shot though..lol.
I think it is just important to remember, we all have personal preferences, none of them are wrong. We just can't confuse those with real numbers and facts. If we agree on a min ft lbs of energy to kill an animal, whatever that number is, and a cartridge is capable of producing those numbers, then it is adequate. That ft lbs of energy alone should determine the cartridges effective range, based on the ballistic table and the energy stated at given yardage. Then we need to start to look at shot placement and other things that are in the hunters control.
I have hunted with many "experienced" hunters that can't shoot a rifle worth a ****.
VTbluegrass
Well-Known Member
Also there were no 5-25x variable power scopes meaning these hunters also got close to game as a general rule. Keep shots to 100yrds and I'll shoot anything in N. America minus a brown bear with my dad's Marlin in 35Rem.
