Story of a poor shot

Capt RB said:

I do a bunch of hunting over frozen lakes for coyotes and understand completely about not having any wind flags out there.
As dramatic as a high shoulder shot is I prefer not to shoot above the ball socket at anything 4 legged. I live in the east so getting shots like this are not common at all.
Alex do you feel if you had anything different other than placement your result would have been the same? Meaning a 215/.30 mag or 338 combination? I don't but I also have no experience at those distances for reference either. Coyotes and crows are all I get to hunt at long range as a rule. Both energy and placement really don't compare with the fragmentation bullets I'm using on such small targets.

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If I made the shot again today I would do the same thing, there was wind I could not see. Thats the part of LR hunting thats not talked about. I do not doubt that the extra tissue damage of a .338 bullet would have killed faster but it still would have been too slow. There just in nothing vital where I hit him. A small corner of a lung was all I got. However with a 215 I would not have drifted into the shoulder so the shot would have been better. The reason we recommend big bullets for elk is to be sure you can penetrate the heavy bone if you hit there. I think thats where guys get misunderstood about big guns for elk. If you know 100% the bullet will not hit bone a .243 will do the job. But since the farther you shoot the less chance you can be 100% the bigger the bullet should get IMO.

Alex Wheeler said:

If I made the shot again today I would do the same thing, there was wind I could not see. Thats the part of LR hunting thats not talked about. I do not doubt that the extra tissue damage of a .338 bullet would have killed faster but it still would have been too slow. There just in nothing vital where I hit him. A small corner of a lung was all I got. However with a 215 I would not have drifted into the shoulder so the shot would have been better. The reason we recommend big bullets for elk is to be sure you can penetrate the heavy bone if you hit there.

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Thank you. So if I'm understanding this correctly A bigger 7 180-195 a 30 215 would only have been better due to less drift. In the same spot though not much if any difference.

Correct, a bigger bullet will help get through bone which is important on elk. Had this been an elk and the bullet did not penetrate the shoulder bone things would have been really bad, I may not have found him at all. But if you dont hit something vital the death just wont come fast no matter what bullet. I have seen elk soak up .338 bullets and keep going like they werent hit. You need 2 things IMO, #1 shot placement , and #2 enough energy to get though bone if you mess up #1.

Alex Wheeler said:

Some of you may remember the thread about spine shots and how to recognize them. Unfortunately that one went sideways and got closed. I had an experience over the weekend that would have went quite well as a follow up. Anyhow, the shot was a whitetail at 752 yards with my 280ai. The deer was broadside facing to my right. No wind at the shooting position, left to right mirage running at the target. I gave 1.5 moa of wind and that was not quite enough. I ended up making the typical high shoulder shot. Another minute of wind would have been perfect but I made a bad call. The deer hit the ground like a sack of potatoes. I saw the shot through my scope and thought it was a spine shot by the deer's reaction. I could not see the animal due to tall grass, so I grabbed my rifle and ran to the deer to finish him if it was needed. Well, I got there pretty fast and did put one in the brain. The high shoulder shot planted him on the spot, and he would have died eventually from the small amount of lung damage. But the high shoulder is there with the spine for me, its an anchoring shot, not necessarily a fast killing shot. I make this post not to stir the pot, but so often all thats posted is a picture of the game, no talk of the shot placement and how things played out. This animal was anchored, DRT, not dead. Would have made great TV though.

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Great post, and congratulations on your LR buck! I agree that understanding the aftermath of the shot is critical to the LRH success and learning experience.
As much as I focus on building the expertise at wind doping and precise shot placement, there is the likelihood that when shooting game at long range, in-determinates(particularly wind) can, and usually will introduce unforeseen errors with the intended shot placement. As much as I would like to place all my shots precisely into the vessals above the heart, for long range, I shoot center mass into the heart/lung area, accounting for about a 1MOA variation, depending on range. If I think the variation is greater, I wait, change position, or forfeit the shot.
Some other considerations:
-a good brake and a scope powder setting that enables me to spot the hit.
-after the shot, immediately chamber a second round while maintaining acquisition of the game for an amount of time sufficient to determine status. I do this even if low growth obscures the animal.
-unless "certain" that the game is dead, using bowhunting rationale, I'll "generally" wait at least 30 minutes, or longer depending on the shot.
While not always possible, having a good spotter is invaluable!

Alex Wheeler said:

Correct, a bigger bullet will help get through bone which is important on elk. Had this been an elk and the bullet did not penetrate the shoulder bone things would have been really bad, I may not have found him at all. But if you dont hit something vital the death just wont come fast no matter what bullet. I have seen elk soak up .338 bullets and keep going like they werent hit. You need 2 things IMO, #1 shot placement , and #2 enough energy to get though bone if you mess up #1.

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I figured before asking that a bigger/better bc combination might improve the margin some for placement if I missed a wind call. Thanks for explaining it so well

I don't believe it's a "poor shot", the animal is dead isn't it?

Now, if you were aiming for the lungs and the bullet went into the guts instead of the shoulder, then yes that would be a "poor shot".

That is one reason I prefer the high shoulder shot, more room for error and farther away from possibly hitting the guts and never finding the animal.

Let's face it, we are killing animals, there's nothing "nice" about it.

Enough talk about "it would look good on TV"...we get it, there's TONS of jealousy on this site about LR hunting shows! Get over it! If you didn't have the capital, skills, experience or motivation to start your own show then don't knock those that did!

And if you feel a high shoulder shot is such a "poor shot" then get closer to the animal so it won't happen again.

adam32 said:

I don't believe it's a "poor shot", the animal is dead isn't it?

Now, if you were aiming for the lungs and the bullet went into the guts instead of the shoulder, then yes that would be a "poor shot".

That is one reason I prefer the high shoulder shot, more room for error and farther away from possibly hitting the guts and never finding the animal.

Let's face it, we are killing animals, there's nothing "nice" about it.

Enough talk about "it would look good on TV"...we get it, there's TONS of jealousy on this site about LR hunting shows! Get over it! If you didn't have the capital, skills, experience or motivation to start your own show then don't knock those that did!

And if you feel a high shoulder shot is such a "poor shot" then get closer to the animal so it won't happen again.

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You seem to be offended by my post. Its a factual report on shot placement and its result. In my opinion its a poor shot due to the fact the animal was very alive when I got to him, and was on the very edge of the vital organs, another inch or two forward and no vitals would have been hit at all. Fact is it looked like an instant kill, which is the point of my post. To recognize these kind of shot for what they are. I dont watch TV and have no jealousy of anyone involved in hollywood.

I can add to this I was hunting this week in IL and shot a nice big body 8 with my 20 gauge HR. Buck came through pretty quick and when I grunted at him to get him to stop I shot. Not very far maybe 40 yards. I hunt a field so my poi was a high shoulder shot. He dropped so fast I couldn't believe it. Beans where still o the field so I could not see him at all. After reloading I heard some rustling and figured he wasn't dead so I ran out and sure enough he was very much alive and bleeding but not enough. So I finished him off. This was not a lack of wind call, to small caliber or any of that. Just a high shoulder shot. I really never knew about the high shoulder shot before this forum and never really tried to place a shot in that area. I was actually shocked that my deer was still alive after that short amount of time I sat and waited. This thread has been a good read for me as I've never experienced that shot placement with that result till just now.

adam32 said:

Let's face it, we are killing animals, there's nothing "nice" about it.

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Most would agree some are nicer than others.

Not sure about the jealousy thing?? Thanks Alex for your view point.

For me it is a personal thing. Yes it is "killing", and the quicker it goes the less it hurts me! I helped my friend get his 1st elk a couple of weeks ago. I called the range at 507y and the elk moved before he could get on target. They then stopped at 470y and I gave him the range again. In his inexperience he did not think the yardage change would make enough diff to mess with. Unfortunately he hit the cow in the spine putting her down but not out. We had to make the trek to her in order to finish. By the time we got into a place where he could make a final shot we were close enough that the cow was in a panic making the finishing shot that much more difficult. He shot her in the neck but hit a bit low and did not shut her off and she required another in the base of the skull from point blank. I apologized to him for having to go through that on his 1st elk. There were good lessons learned for all of us on that one. If causing an animal to go through that does not effect you emotionally, you are a harder person than I am. The more I hunt the animals the more admiration I have for them. I don't want to "hurt" them, if that makes sense. A good bullet (that can handle the imperfect shot) through the lungs is quickest, cleanest, most reliable shot. I don't mind breaking down shoulders and taking lungs to keep animal travel after the shot to a min, but prefer the pure lung shot to minimize meat loss.

Steve

This a good food for thought thread. I've made my share of less than perfect shots. My favorite placement behind the shoulder through the lungs. I very much agree with Steve about not wanting to hurt the animals. The cow I shot last week took a single 180gr accubond straight through the lungs at 309 yards. She stumbled about 20 yards and tipped over dead.

Alex Wheeler said:

Some of you may remember the thread about spine shots and how to recognize them. Unfortunately that one went sideways and got closed. I had an experience over the weekend that would have went quite well as a follow up. Anyhow, the shot was a whitetail at 752 yards with my 280ai. The deer was broadside facing to my right. No wind at the shooting position, left to right mirage running at the target. I gave 1.5 moa of wind and that was not quite enough. I ended up making the typical high shoulder shot. Another minute of wind would have been perfect but I made a bad call. The deer hit the ground like a sack of potatoes. I saw the shot through my scope and thought it was a spine shot by the deer's reaction. I could not see the animal due to tall grass, so I grabbed my rifle and ran to the deer to finish him if it was needed. Well, I got there pretty fast and did put one in the brain. The high shoulder shot planted him on the spot, and he would have died eventually from the small amount of lung damage. But the high shoulder is there with the spine for me, its an anchoring shot, not necessarily a fast killing shot. I make this post not to stir the pot, but so often all thats posted is a picture of the game, no talk of the shot placement and how things played out. This animal was anchored, DRT, not dead. Would have made great TV though.

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Lots of what I call 'slob hunters' out there. You aren't one by a long shot. I've seen some gruesome stuff in my day, especially in North Central Michigan on white tail deer and a couple on my posted land too. Last one was a gut shot doe that made it to about 20 yards from one of my stationary blinds. Hole in her midsection and the slob hunter didn't bother tracking her. I had to dispose of the carcass myself.

Last week, hunting ibex overseas, had a similar experience. At the end of a long hard stalk, we got within my comfort range as the herd was grazing deliberately toward a cliff. We had little time to pick out the big billy in the group and wait for him to stop. He did at 426 yards, and I squeezed off the shot. Just as the trigger broke, he stepped forward and down. Bullet hit him high and back just at the last full rib. Later upon examination we learned it was just below the spine but destroyed the spinal cord and a major artery. He dropped like a stone. I stayed in my gun, chambered another round and waited to see if he rose, but he did not. The guides cheered and we made our way across the slope to him, which took about 15 minutes. As we got to about 25 yards from him, he rose on his front feet and faced off against us in a defensive posture. A guide carried my gun and insisted we wait while I argued for shooting again. He bled out shortly and fell which ended the argument, but it was gut wrenching for me. The guides all celebrated and told me what a great shot it was. I didn't want to disappoint them, but inside I knew it was a poor shot. A lot of people have said in this forum that if you hunt long enough, something like this will happen. When it does, as RockyMtnMT said, it affects you emotionally. You need time to process it as a part of our sport. And, as the OP said, we need to learn from it.

I like your post and it is worthy of consideration, however, I wouldn't call a high shoulder shot "poor" due to effectively dropping the animal. Many times a critter can scoot over the ridge or other, with a shot that doesn't quickly drop it. A Berger 175gn VLD from my 300WSM went thru a shoulder and blew up the lungs. No real exit wound. The cow went about 30 yards.