What went wrong? Opinions needed.

Jeremyc said:
This is the best explanation that I have heard so far. Also, I am wondering what the area was behind the bull. I thought I read dry lake bed, but am not sure. One thing that I have learned is that shots are not always as high as they appear. In watching thousands of bullets miss targets while ROing PRS style matches, one needs to take into account the foliage around the target. If there is 10" of grass and you see a dust cloud, the bullet impact is actually 10" lower than where the dust cloud appears. Not saying that this is happening in this case, but you did say that there was about 10" of grass where you were shooting, so maybe your shots weren't as high as you thought?
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Yes, the bull was on the far side of a dry lake bed next to the far embankment. That far embankment where the bullets struck was sparsely vegetated, mostly dirt and rocks and fairly steep. It was pretty good conditions to spot a miss. Still, at that distance with the elk reacting instantaneously to the bullet strike (not the shot boom), calling the shot "2 feet high" is a rough guesstimate. It wasn't 4 feet high, but I can't say with 100% surety that it wasn't just over its back.
 
Song Dogger said:
If I understand "full wind value", the angle could not have accounted for it since the Geovid has no measurement or input for wind speed.

Agreed on sight picture - possibly a factor, but not accounting for the full error.

About breaking position to follow the shot - I vividly remember staying behind the scope to see each missed shot's impact behind the bull. Both the dust cloud and the bull were in the scope's sight picture, so I don't think I broke form early. Doubt my eyes could adjust quick enough from 12x power to the naked eye to see a puff of dust, anyway.
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A full value wind is 90 degrees to the flight path of the bullet. This headwind up a slope would be significantly greater than 90 degrees. My geometry is too rusty to do the calculation of the 1 degree up slope wind vs the arc of the bullet's path but I pretty sure it's greater than 170 degrees. Someone more knowledgeable can weigh in if there is a ballistic principle that will account for more rise than I can see here.

What my dad used to do was peak over the top with the naked eye. I was wondering if maybe you "flinched", for lack of a better term, trying to ensure that you pressed into the gun and didn't lose your view through the scope. It's just a speculation as are all of these hypotheses.
 
Jeremyc said:
I would encourage you to use a ballistic program and make different range cards for different temperature and atmospheric conditions. I use JBMs solver and made dope cards from 100-1400 yards from 0* to 100* temps and from 0' Density altitude to 10,000' density altitude. It was a very educational process. I have the Kestrel with Applied ballistics, but creating the range cards gave me more information than I could ever have imagined. I don't think that it would have solved your problem, but it would help you if your batteries in your geovid die and solve as a double check in the field.
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I do carry a dope card for windage, but it also has elevation in the event of a Geovid or battery failure. It matched the Geovid exactly.
 
Song Dogger said:
I'll elaborate more on my improper form. Prior to this, I was under the impression "the less I interact with the gun, the less mistakes I'd make". In practice, the Lead Sled braced the butt and I gently hung my fingers from under the fore end to avoid scope bite - no crosshair movement from breathing or heartbeats. When I shot this elk, it was a conscious decision to not touch the fore end, I did not lean into the bipod, and the butt barely touched my shoulder. Only my trigger arm, elbow on the ground, held the butt and crosshairs in place. My focus was steady crosshairs, and I achieved that.

But, I didn't consider that the gun kick would happen fast enough to affect bullet flight. But, it has to, right? It only takes nanoseconds for the bullet to leave the muzzle, but the forces driving the muzzle up and butt down are instantaneous. And, it wouldn't take much movement to affect bullet flight a couple feet at 450 yards.

To anyone skimming this thread - no need to say "sight in and practice using the technique with which you intend to hunt". We're on the same page now.
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I think you are starting to figure it out.:)
 
First off I'm very sorry about the loss of your dog, I know they can be like family.
Next, I know the Leicas can be very tricky to program, I had 3 different SD cards with slightly different data that I would switch out at the range so I could validate while the binos were measuring the same conditions. Even though I had the correct velocity, BC, etc. the solution given by the HDB's isn't always correct and has to be validated, just as any program, and modify the inputs if needed. I also found the best setting for output was in scope clicks, being 1/4 MOA as it gave the best solution. I think one of the outputs was in whole MOA and it rounded it off to the nearest half MOS which is unacceptable.
 
fitzm2 said:
Let's see if I can give you some food for thought on these misses. You mentioned that your ballistic compensator adjusted the yardage to 450 yards, but the actual line of sight is probably 500 yds and some change. You mentioned that you had a 1 degree slope and that you were shooting down hill. You also mentioned that there was a 10 mile per hour headwind.
We know that 1 degree is equal to 92 feet at one mile. If your target is somewhere near 500 yds then we know that your target was somewhere around 30 feet below your line of sight. 500 yds/1760 yds=about 1/3. 1/3 of 92 feet = 30 feet. If we were to draw a triangle with the apex being where you were shooting from , you can see quickly that the wind is not a head wind per se...it is acting as an updraft because of the slope of the hill.
We can input a 10 mile an hour wind into our ballistic calculator and for a full value wind our drift factor will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 minutes based on your 210 grain bullet. Now in a prone position, shooting down hill, that bullet will be traveling basically in ground affect...which means that the air is denser than you would expect. Now, if we take the bullet and view it as an airplane wing, traveling into a 10 mile an hour wind and that wind is affecting the bullet in a constant lift due to the slope of the land, I suspect that we have just exceeded 4 minutes of angle. 4 minutes of angle at 500 yards, that the bullet is actually traveling, puts the bullet about 20 inches above your point of aim.
From your description of where your bullets were impacting, dose this make sense?
Click to expand...

This is a long thread, difficult for posters to read through what's already been stated - so, I appreciate a new viewpoint like this.

But, if the Geovid gives me a true horizontal distance of 450 yds, the line of sight is actually only 450.1 yds (450 / Cosine 1). One degree is negligible. To jump to your estimated line-of-sight of 500 yds, the angle would need to be 26 degrees. Vertical drop is 24 feet (450 x Tangent 1), so you did estimate that closely.

As for the headwind, I understand the concept of updraft. But, I'm not good enough to estimate if that headwind was parallel to the ground at 1 degree (a true headwind) or a 0 degree headwind acting with an upward vertical force component on the bullet. But, again, at one degree, that upward force component seems very, very small.

You have a ballistic calculator showing 3 MOA of drift for a 10 mph headwind on a 1 degree slope? By drift, are you saying upwards (updraft), not left or right? And, you say "full value" wind is defined as 90 degrees to the bullet's flight path - but nothing, not even updraft, is acting 90 degrees to the bullet path, right? I'm unfamiliar with ground effect, and how it can make air denser in a prone vs bench position (2-3 feet of elevation difference). I'm not following this well at all.
 
Wedgy said:
First off I'm very sorry about the loss of your dog, I know they can be like family.
Next, I know the Leicas can be very tricky to program, I had 3 different SD cards with slightly different data that I would switch out at the range so I could validate while the binos were measuring the same conditions. Even though I had the correct velocity, BC, etc. the solution given by the HDB's isn't always correct and has to be validated, just as any program, and modify the inputs if needed. I also found the best setting for output was in scope clicks, being 1/4 MOA as it gave the best solution. I think one of the outputs was in whole MOA and it rounded it off to the nearest half MOS which is unacceptable.
Click to expand...

Thanx for the condolences, kinda ruined the hunt trip some. As for the Geovid, I actually store all the various files on one SD card, including a Word file with a description of each. When I want to switch files, I just change the name "drop.hex" to activate it. It does require a laptop, though.

I've always validated the Geovid solutions under varying conditions - not by shooting (I will now - don't scold me), but by comparing to several ballistic calculators. One thing I learned after contacting Leica, they have to be programmed to standard sea level conditions (29.92 in Hg, 59 degrees). Then, they adjust their solutions using their environmental measurements.

As for the Geovid's whole MOA option, I'm pretty sure it's in tenths of an MOA. Plenty for my 1/4 MOA (0.25) turret adjustments.
 
Guiding hunters for years I've seen this many times. Can't even predict or notice when it happens. I've seen many hunters drop the butt to look over the scope to see what happens. Not even know they just did it. Watch the bullet all the way through your game will help. Following through looking through your scope is way more fun.
 
Song Dogger said:
Thanx for the condolences, kinda ruined the hunt trip some. As for the Geovid, I actually store all the various files on one SD card, including a Word file with a description of each. When I want to switch files, I just change the name "drop.hex" to activate it. It does require a laptop, though.

I've always validated the Geovid solutions under varying conditions - not by shooting (I will now - don't scold me), but by comparing to several ballistic calculators. One thing I learned after contacting Leica, they have to be programmed to standard sea level conditions (29.92 in Hg, 59 degrees). Then, they adjust their solutions using their environmental measurements.

As for the Geovid's whole MOA option, I'm pretty sure it's in tenths of an MOA. Plenty for my 1/4 MOA (0.25) turret adjustments.
Click to expand...
The most accurate solution for me was using the 1/4 click output, for example for 5 MOA the output would display the yardage then the solution, ie " 531 yards" then display "20" which means 20 clicks on a 1/4 MOA scope = 5 MOA adjustment.
Change your SD cards at the range to meet the current conditions, also make sure the binos aren't in the sun or left in the warm car when it's cold outside. they must be at ambient temp. Adjust your cards to hit your zero range and something at 600-900 yards and everything in between will be close enough.
Mine have occasionally given solutions out to 1,000 yards despite being past what their limit is, but it matched the G7BR2. Farthest kill was a coyote at 867 yards quite a bit downhill with a 6.5x284 so it does work pretty well once dialed in, especially solo hunting on a quick coyote opportunity
 
Wedgy said:
The most accurate solution for me was using the 1/4 click output, for example for 5 MOA the output would display the yardage then the solution, ie " 531 yards" then display "20" which means 20 clicks on a 1/4 MOA scope = 5 MOA adjustment.
Change your SD cards at the range to meet the current conditions, also make sure the binos aren't in the sun or left in the warm car when it's cold outside. they must be at ambient temp. Adjust your cards to hit your zero range and something at 600-900 yards and everything in between will be close enough.
Mine have occasionally given solutions out to 1,000 yards despite being past what their limit is, but it matched the G7BR2. Farthest kill was a coyote at 867 yards quite a bit downhill with a 6.5x284 so it does work pretty well once dialed in, especially solo hunting on a quick coyote opportunity
Click to expand...

I just assumed the Geovid's whole MOA solution would match the 1/4 MOA solution - like 5.1 MOA would round to 20 1/4 MOA clicks. Easy to swap between the two modes, I'll verify.

So, to understand, each of your SD cards differ slightly, then you shoot at a particular distance to see which card's solution fits the actual results best? If so, what parameter(s) do you modify to adjust drops - muzzle velocity? It shouldn't be an environmental parameter, like pressure or temp, because they self-adjust the cards data using actual measurements - right?
 
Song Dogger said:
I just assumed the Geovid's whole MOA solution would match the 1/4 MOA solution - like 5.1 MOA would round to 20 1/4 MOA clicks. Easy to swap between the two modes, I'll verify.

So, to understand, each of your SD cards differ slightly, then you shoot at a particular distance to see which card's solution fits the actual results best? If so, what parameter(s) do you modify to adjust drops - muzzle velocity? It shouldn't be an environmental parameter, like pressure or temp, because they self-adjust the cards data using actual measurements - right?
Click to expand...
I vary the muzzle velocity on the different cards and see which one matches the bullet drop. Regardless of the binos, I do not adjust BC inside of ~700 yards. Use the Applied ballistics Litz BC data for your bullet, not the manufacturers data as it is usually hyped up a bit. You are correct, the environmental factors are corrected by the binos.
Again, I found the quarter click output to be the most accurate.
 
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Song Dogger said:
Thanks. Suggestions on a rear bag? Wondering if there's something of quality that's lightweight and packable.
Click to expand...
I make my own out of used lead shot bags filled with hollow plastic pellets for the field and use course sand at the range for the added weight.

I make three kinds.

One just flat like a regular sandbag.

One, done the same but with two pockets, one at each end and sew a flat space between them about 1.5" wide. This one can either be folded easily when necessary or used as a cradle for the rifle on top of something else.

Lastly I make them where I distribute the material evenly but fairly flat and sew it horizontally so that I can roll it up slowly to the perfect height.

IF you want to make just a smaller squeeze bag, that's easy too, just fill one to about 1/3 full and sew it at almost half up from the bottom.

If you don't have any such bags laying around you can usually pick them up for 1-3.00 ea on ebay.
 
WildRose said:
I make my own out of used lead shot bags filled with hollow plastic pellets for the field and use course sand at the range for the added weight.

I make three kinds.

One just flat like a regular sandbag.

One, done the same but with two pockets, one at each end and sew a flat space between them about 1.5" wide. This one can either be folded easily when necessary or used as a cradle for the rifle on top of something else.

Lastly I make them where I distribute the material evenly but fairly flat and sew it horizontally so that I can roll it up slowly to the perfect height.

IF you want to make just a smaller squeeze bag, that's easy too, just fill one to about 1/3 full and sew it at almost half up from the bottom.

If you don't have any such bags laying around you can usually pick them up for 1-3.00 ea on ebay.
Click to expand...

Great advice, sir!
 
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