Hunting Rifle MOA Rant

I think what goes on at shooting ranges is this. "Good enough for hunting", isn't an excuse or disrespect for the quarry. It's an admission. Admittedly their rig isn't going to place in any shooting event. At any distance. Against a true competition rifle. But uncle Howard's old pre 64 M70 has put meat on the table for 60 years,every year,shooting an inch and a half at 100 yards. They know it's never going to be any better than that. So why make excuses for it. There are a LOT of people that check zero,with factory ammo,once a year. Then hunt 3 or 4 days and that's it. It's just the way it is.

I'm an accuracy nut. But I'm realistic too. I want holes touching at 100 yards with my bolt action,bottle neck cartridge rifles. But,my PA deer rifle is a pretty little Kimber Classic Select 30/06. It's a solid 3/4" rifle with three different hand loads. 150,165,and 180 grain. The 165s will generally be touching each other. Notice I didn't say MOA. I have no idea if it's a solid 3/4 MOA rifle at say 400 yards. On the other hand,it hasn't been pointed at any game animal at more than 150 yards. That's just a fact of life. My deer stand is on a bench of the "Crick hill. Red brush and devils club. It's more than good enough "For hunting". The 270 I'm taking in two weeks to a Colorado trophy unit for deer,is doing 3/4 MOA to 400 confirmed. Not even a good start here on this forum,but my personal limit for a sporter weight rig,with these eyes. The ballistic reticle has also been confirmed at the various ranges they represent to 500 yards. Nifty device I might add. My 3" 400 yard groups open up to closer 6" at 500. No longer 3/4 MOA. Hey,it's a factory Tikka,with an old dude on the loud lever. I'm happy with it. I do have a Remington based 280 AI build that will do better. Unfortunately it's a good 2 pounds heavier. It's going in back up rifle status. Not my idea of a good time in the mountains. Good shooter though.

KyCarl said:

My partner and I own 615 acres outside Spencer WV. Hunted the same place over 40 years. I know every rock and bush? We each spend several weeks there every year
keeping the house up and checking things out. I have spent the last 42 Thanksgivings
with him there. Age and health issues are changing that now.
I think if I had to travel to a strange place to hunt I would quit and just shoot steel?

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If hunting were limited to landowners on their own property you'd eliminate about 90% of the hunting public.

Do that and see how long our gun rights are defended from the incessant attacks of the anti gunners and our hunting rights in the face of the attacks from the anti hunting greenies.

Those of us that have our own land to hunt are a very small and very fortunate minority.

Benchrest groups and 1st shot hunting skills are two different animals in my book.
Having said that...hunting/offhand shooting with a gun that doesn't shoot sub MOA should be a close range sport.

By the time accuracy matters much, trajectory and wind matter more. Uncertainties measured in inches are lost in the mix when thrown in with uncertainities measured in feet. Besides, you don't get to shoot groups on game, the first shot decides the outcome.

Defining hunting definitions changes my view.

My rock-locked patch balled shooting black powder rifle is deadly accurate within bow hunting ranges and I can generally first shot out kill a bow and arrow hunter at 40 yards (if it's not raining and the pan doesn't fail).

My iron-sighted 1895 Marlin 38-55 loaded with black powder and hard cast lead boolit will generally first shot out kill most flintlock rifles at 50 to 75 yards.

My Custom Remington 700 29" Hawk Hill MTU barreled 300 RUM with a custom TAC MATCH chamber and a sightron SIII LRMD scope on a badger 20 moa rail will generally first shot out kill most any commercial sporting rifle at 700 - 800.

Other stuff I think about:

Brass cartridges are more reliable that panned primers (especially in bad weather).

Can the game stomp or eat me (this changes weapons and tactics for me)?

What will be the stalking ranges for my hunt (how good am I)?

Based on the above, I can then choose a suitable hunting tool.

Do I have the stalking skill to approach with 40 yards of my game? If so, than any of my arsenal will probably be good enough. None will be an "insult" to the game.

Accuracy levels needed to achieve my hunting outcome depend on my hunting skill. The tools I need for a successful hunt are driven in large part by my hunting skill. A great shooter who can't hunt will not get much game.

Just my 2 cents.
v/r rch

i find that all of the 1/2moa rifles and shooters have taken the day off when its time to put up or shut up! there is always something unexplainably "wrong" when those 1/2" clusters fail to form at the other end.....

Let me see If I got this right: Put the pointy end of the cartridge in the gun first and shoot the animal in the front third of the body.

I have a few 1/2 moa rifles. I have a 3/8 moa 25/06. Stressed over that 25 06 for the longest cause it would only do 1.25 moa until I found the magic 3/8 moa load. Guess what? We never shoot it much anymore. It was my 7 year old son's first rifle, I was determined to make it shoots great. He never shot at an animal over 250 yards with it. You guys can figure how much of a difference 3/8 vs 1.25 moa would be as far a lethal kill on medium sized game at 250yds. Yes I really like 1/2 moa rifles. I've also worked long and hard to make this rifles do this. I once felt the same way the original poster did and still do sometimes but it's not the top of my priority list anymore. A youngster can harvest quite a bit of game with a moa rifle. If you ever have a time in your life when you think you have very few days left on this earth, the things like 1/2 moa rifles that seemed so important are the last things on your mind. What will be important to you are things such as: did I help any one else by using my time, resources & talents. Someone who needed a blessing in their life, someone who didn't have anyone else to show them the things that you knew how to do. Pass on what you know and be a blessing to someone else. That's what will bring you more satisfaction that any thing. God bless all of you. Jesus Saves.

This is the long range hunting forum so to me that is 600 yards and beyond. And for me I would not feel comfortable with anything that didn't shoot .5 MOA at that range.

Since my first post on this thread I've shot my .270 WSM at 800 yds in practice for next weeks 2nd season elk and deer season. On two consecutive days it shot just under half MOA. After this I hunted Bear for 3 days with a Browning 1886 45-70. Between my day pack and packing the 9 lb gun in my hands my 59 yr old shoulders were so sore it was no longer enjoyable. Love the .270 but it really only shoots marmots at those ranges. I've shot a lot of elk over the years with a small handful around 300, one near 500, and one at 1098. All the rest, over 50, were within 200 most under 150. Any factory rifle and ammo would have worked for these ones. I'm selling the.270 and 45-70 and have a NULA .284 on order. I'll hope to see half moa but twice that will be more than adequate for every range I'll use this rifle at... I concede good enough will be good enough for the intended use.
The 45-70 has shot 1.25 moa at 100 and 200 the last couple times out. Providence 21 peep. May hunt with it some, but heavy weight and hard recoil it will go after I play with it a little more.

Deviant said:

This is the long range hunting forum so to me that is 600 yards and beyond. And for me I would not feel comfortable with anything that didn't shoot .5 MOA at that range.

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+1 here.

Deviant said:

This is the long range hunting forum so to me that is 600 yards and beyond. And for me I would not feel comfortable with anything that didn't shoot .5 MOA at that range.

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1 MOA at 600yds gives you the exact same average error as .5 MOA at 1000yds.

The kill zone at 600yds on medium game like Antelope or deer is 1.5-2' wide and about 10-12" in height.

We should all keep that in mind and only take shots we're confident in putting into that kill box.

Beyond that we're not gaining anything.

I would like to see in person (not pictures) outside in the weather Someone set up and shoot A regular 4 1/2 inch clay target at 600 yards and break it first shot. Bring your gambling money! I think there are more that think they can.. Than can?

KyCarl said:

I would like to see in person (not pictures) outside in the weather Someone set up and shoot A regular 4 1/2 inch clay target at 600 yards and break it first shot. Bring your gambling money! I think there are more that think they can.. Than can?

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I have a few rifles capable of 1/2 moa at 1000 yards. My local range is 540 yards.
I have a 4" steel plate I set up at the 540 along with a 8" and a 12". I take a rifle out of the truck, dial and shoot for the 4" cold bore. I have hit it several times on the first shot, I've missed it several times too. I wouldn't bet large amounts of money on it. I would bet money on the 8" though.