Since I dont see a terminal performance thread...

Friend of mine had to put an old cow down. Beef cow. Just got a new 45-70. 300 grain Hornady Lever revolution. 50 yards. First shot behind the shoulder. No reaction. 2nd shot no reaction.

8th shot finally dropped her at about 80 yards. 8 exit holes right behind the shoulder. This changes my thoughts on mass/velocity somewhat. Thought it was interesting on a 1000+ lb animal.

What sort of timeframe are we talking? If you don't hit the CNS or break the shoulder skeletal structure, you are waiting on the lungs to collapse and bleed out. On an animal domesticate and likely not startled this could lead to a delayed response. At long range, I've put three effective 300WM rounds through the lungs of an elk and waited five minutes for it to fall over.

I had an angus bull that weighed well over a ton that got ugly on us and couldn't be handled safely. One shot to the head with a .30-30 and it was all over all said and done,no suffering. Thats the way its done on my farm. Take it for what it is. ctw

ctw said:

I had an angus bull that weighed well over a ton that got ugly on us and couldn't be handled safely. One shot to the head with a .30-30 and it was all over all said and done,no suffering. Thats the way its done on my farm. Take it for what it is. ctw

Click to expand...

This. Pumping 8 rounds into that cow was BS. mtmuley

Most guys around here use a 22 mag to the forehead. No sense in letting them suffer.

Friend's cow aside, terminal bullet performance has got to be the most neglected area of study in hunting. And some of the bullet/ammo makers are culprits. Marketing a bullet as fully effective on any size game, at any impact velocity between 20 fps to 5,000 fps ( I exaggerate, but not by much) is an issue as the market shifts to encourage longer and longer shots. The fact is that a highly effective bullet at 50 yards is almost never going to be effective at 500 yards and vice versa. And it's not as simple as velocity vs. mass. Each design has it's own sweet spots and its limitations. Bore diameter alters considerations drastically. I'm not the expert. Nathan Foster, who has contributed articles to this site, has done more study in this area than anyone I'm aware of and is an unbelievable resource of knowledge and experience. But I continue to be concerned by some manufacturers' willingness to use unrealistic expectations in their marketing. If I see one more bullet design pushed as the next greatest thing with a picture of a gel block..... As shooters and hunters we've got to grow a culture of careful study, analysis, and dialogue among ourselves that includes terminal bullet performance and refuses to treat magazine and internet ads as gospel.

Now, back to the friends' cow. Do you know the barrel length of the rifle? If you know barrel length and if the published velocity of the load that was being used is to be trusted, and we assume that the published velocity was based on a standard 24" barrel (or even if it was based on a different barrel length), then the impact velocity should be something you can calculate. You've got one of two things: an impact velocity number that you know that bullet needs to stay above, or reason to call the manufacturer about a possible flawed batch of bullets. Every bullet on the market will pinhole if it strikes slow enough. Were the exit wounds pinholes, expanded holes, or just fragment exits? The type of exit wound drastically alters the analysis. I doubt Hornady expects this bullet fail at 50 yards on a large bodied animal. But I also doubt Hornady expected bullets sold in America to be used to make chest cavity shots on bovines. There are a lot of variables. Again, Foster is the best resource I'm aware of. His site is www.ballisticstudies.com and the Knowledgebase section has a library of field study based information on a ton of chamberings and the available bullets for them, including .45-70. The articles he published on this site on game killing fundamentals are also important reading and applicable to your situation.

You always shoot cattle between the eyes, 1 inch high. Always!
And use a center fire round...they aren't a frickin varmit!
One of the verified beef procedures in Canada is getting ppl to not use rim fire rounds on cattle.

I didnt do it and didnt witness it. Heard about it. I understand the cow had a cancer condition and could not be used for human consumption. I think everyone knows a centerfire round to the head at close range does the job.

Seen lots of 9mm slide off there heads

We used a mini 14 just above the eyes centered up. Doesn't matter if it's for consumption or not. If your going to kill something other than a child rapist or murderer you do it as quickly and humanely as you can.

None of you guys ever wondered how a 45-70 would work on a large animal. What if this same guy had gone moose hunting with this same setup. No one here would have complained if the scenerio played out that way. The bashing going on here is what our friends at PETA want to see. Come on guys maybe we all learned something from this rancher. Maybe those 300gr Hornady's are not quite as good as they could be. Maybe they did not open up they sure should have on that cow I would hope. Maybe the best lesson of all lab tests are not the same as real life animals. Tell would none of you have thought hey this would be a great combo to try on a Bison hunt.

Wild Bill, not bashing anybody. I've killed a **** load of animals in my day. I grew up around farm critters, and you don't treat them that way when putting them down. Most folks that make a living from them don't. They respect them as their livelihood depends on them. As far as your PETA arguement, that's BS too. mtmuley

Wild Bill that's a good point. Also this would give you time to look at the wound channel created by these bullets. I agree that a cow should get a quick shot to the head and end. I've done that a few times myself, but it's always good to see what a bullet will do in real life so we can make batter informed decisions.

MTMuley my PETA point is spot on they feed on fighting amungst us. As hunters we fight over baiting or not baiting bears all of our arguments are used against us. Another thing is we have no idea it took the guy to fire 8 shots. Remember also we consider a shot to the chest of a deer a fast humane kill. To me this guy found out what many of us never get a chance to find out in a controlled environment. My beef might lean more toward Hornady on this one. As I stated what if that had been a Moose in the feild.