Clean inside case neck ?

Mikecr said:

I've never done it, but I'm sure lubing neck IDs with wax would greatly reduce seating forces. My concern there & what I would test for is changing CBTO with box/field handling & recoil. I would also be concerned with wax by-product residue combining with fouling in the bore. So I'd be looking for that.

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It does reduce seating force, a lot. Which means that the affect of any variation in case neck tension on the bullet is also reduced a lot. And the wax seems to prevent the bullets from bonding to the case neck over time.

I don't recommend it for ammo used for dangerous game or predators, where your life depends on the bullet staying put in the case neck under recoil in the magazine. No reason to lube case necks on .375 and .458 caliber cartridges intended for dangerous game at closer ranges. And I would never lube case necks with cartridges in heavy recoiling revolvers. I always crimp revolver ammo.

I single shot load my repeating bolt actions for long range hunting so bullet shifting in the case neck isn't an issue. When I carry rounds in the magazine, they're bear/camp rounds for shorter range self defensive use, and those case necks aren't waxed.

I wax the case necks of .223 ammo for use in my AR-15 - but I also crimp those bullets with the Lee Factory Crimp Die, due to the semi-auto action slamming the bullets home into the chamber. I don't want to take chances with bullets moving in the cartridge case necks before the primer goes off.

I like Hornady Unique wax better than Imperial sizing wax. Both for resizing of cartridge cases in the resizing die, and for lubing the internal case neck prior to bullet seating. Wipes on and off easier. I use a Q-tip to apply inside the case neck. And a fresh Q-tip to remove any excess. One clean Q-tip is good to remove any excess wax from around 40 case necks. Then I'll switch to a new Q-tip.

I have no concerns about wax buildup in my bore, or wax contaminating my bore. Any wax from the case neck or the bearing surface of the bullet is exhausted in an oxidized or vapor form - in my opinion. Wax burns very easily and quickly even at low temperatures, let alone the pressures and temps inside the bore. I've been doing this for a couple years now. No problems so far.

The reason I starting waxing case necks internally was what I learned after I pulled about 2000 bullets from some .223 cases. I'd loaded that many rounds, and I decided to pull all the bullets so I could HBN coat the bullets. Some of the case necks had been lubed prior to seating the bullets when they were originally loaded without HBN coating. The bullets I pulled from case necks that had been pre-waxed pulled with MUCH more uniform force on the press handle - compared to the bullets pulled from unwaxed case necks. The bullets pulled from unwaxed case necks pulled with some huge differences in press handle force - in comparison. I pulled the bullets using the RCBS collet-style bullet pulling die.

Yeah, I have a touch of OCD, but it was a winter time project. I learned a lot about case neck to bullet friction and the factors that affect the force required to pull .223 bullets, by the time I was done pulling 2000 of them.

Now is it worth it? It is for me. And that's all I have to say about that

I bought a little tin of powdered graphite 50+ years ago, I dip the end of the case in the powdered graphite, tap it off and roll it on the lube pad lightly...it's a little dirty but I've had a stuck case and never had an expander ball issue..good stuff and a tin will last a lifetime and then pass it on..

phorwath said:

It does reduce seating force, a lot. Which means that the affect of any variation in case neck tension on the bullet is also reduced a lot.

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This is not true at all.
Seating/pulling force means nothing directly about tension.
Neck tension is a brass squeezing force, and not a frictional force, nor a quantity of interference fit.
A bullet under tension is released when pressure expands necks to release it. This is a relatively tiny force, and a super small distance. If the load actually had to overcome a 'pulling force' to release a bullet, it would likely blow up.

Seating force is about friction, in itself having zero affect on pressure or MV.
I know this through testing with WS2 coated/uncoated bullets under same tension, regardless of seating friction. If the wax you're using truly does not affect burn or fouling, than you can see that coated/uncoated, easy seating/hard seating, means nothing to pressure.
On the flipside, actual tension means a lot.

Folks, neck tension is not what you affect with lubes.
You affect seating force, which affects seating depth consistency, and you affect ammo integrity.
If the lube is moly, then you reduce pressure of the load as latent heat of vaporization comes into play. That's moly.
You can also affect your fouling, like when moly or other lube vapors condense down the bore. These vapors do not just blow out, given that one side of the tube is sealed(chamber end). You can pull a bolt quickly on firing and see them in the bore.

Reducing the coefficient of friction between the bullet and the case neck will reduce the pressure required to start the bullet out of the case neck, no matter how you describe the method of bullet release from the case neck.
On the one hand you expressed concern that the bullet could shift position in the casing under recoil if the friction between the bullet and case neck is reduced sufficiently, while the cartridge is in the magazine. On the other hand you're stating that friction between bullet and the case neck has no influence on the pressure required to initiate bullet movement. How do you reconcile those two stated positions?

Now I understand, I believe, your description of how case neck tension is released as the case neck expands due to increasing internal case pressure. But to completely dismiss the coefficient of friction between bullet and case neck as having zero influence on the pressure necessary to initiate bullet movement is an oversight, or an exaggeration of the primary versus secondary affects on minimum pressures required to initiate bullet movement from the case neck.
Take the coefficient of friction down to zero. Do you claim this has no effect? The bullet falls out of the case neck if the loaded cartridge is held pointed down toward the ground while held by the case head. Still no affect on the internal case pressure required to initiate bullet release?

The trick that works for me is consistency.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/neck-tension-not-just-bushing-size/

Try our best to keep neck brass thickness as close as possible and use a bump stop at the bottom of the stroke when neck sizing.

Dry graphite powder is only 1 of the many reloaders best friends.

Don

Well to curtail extremes, I'll qualify my assertions. With necks having any viable for use friction, and ~1thou of springback gripping pretty much any bearing length, normal variances in seating forces do not affect pressure -unless the seating force variance is also indicative of gripping/tension variances.
Simply changing lube toward reasonable reduction, or increase, in seating forces, would not affect pressure, because it does not change the pressure required to release bullets.

It's important to understand that bullets are not normally pushed out of necks. They're freely released. Given this understanding, it's much easier to manage truly consistent tension.
I could throw you some tests that you can do yourself, and describe observations around this, to help you see it. Ultimately, it all comes down to what passes tests, and what does not.

Don, at what step do you reduce your neck diameter and how do you do it? I like your method, I wanna try it.

I tried to message you but for some reason I cannot.

There was no intention to be a smart-***. Extremes are a useful method to diagnose cause and affect.

Friction and neck tension are both inextricably involved in any discussion of internal case pressure required to "release", or push, bullets from the case neck - which ever combination of those two terms you prefer (release, push - or both).

Case neck tension with zero case neck to bullet friction means the bullet is released freely without the need for any internal case pressure.

Case neck to bullet friction without any tension (contact with the case neck) also means the bullet is release freely without the need for any internal case pressure.

Neither scenario is real life, but the extremes demonstrate that both tension and friction are in play. So it's matter of which is the greater affecting factor. I also think neck tension is the greater factor.

But waxing internal case necks reduces friction and seating forces much more than dipping the case necks in dry graphite powder. So much so that I'm confident it can be a factor that allows bullet motion sooner, with less internal case pressure, than a dry bullet seated into a dry case neck. Which is where we have some disagreement.

Waxed case necks also result in more uniform bullet seating depths measured from case head to ogive with less effort, in my experience. The force required to seat the bullet is much more uniform and the bullet ends up more consistently seated to my targeted seating depth sooner, rather than later.

When I clean cases, I want the whole case clean. That includes the inside of the neck.

Here's one example, not quite so extreme, which amps up the bullet to case neck friction tremendously. Crimping bullets into crimp grooves on non-lubed bullets and non-lubed case necks. Or even crimping without the crimp groove (cannelure), using the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

To my way of thinking, crimping increases friction much more than neck tension, because only a small section of the mouth of the case neck is crimped.

We know crimping can have a very notable affect on powder ignition rate, and bullet precision, compared to non-crimped bullets.

So if case neck tension is the overwhelming (as in sole) cause controlling internal case pressure prior to bullet release, and friction plays an insignificant role, I wouldn't expect crimping to induce such a large affect on internal ballistics and bullet precision.

Lots of factory ammo is crimped, and one of the most common explanations heard is that it provides a more consistent powder burn rate, by increasing the internal case pressure prior to bullet release.

Maybe my PM setting are not set up right.

When my Lapua brass was new I took a reading of 10 brass, then picked the average less 0.002 thou to allow for leeway of brass build up over time.

Once my brass starts to show signs of thickening I use my Layman """out-side""" neck trimmer to take off a small fraction of build-up,,, I don't trim right up to where the strait neck meets the shoulder,,, staying back a few thousands allows for that brass build up to continue to flow keeping the brass wall thickness constant.

The nice thing I've noticed about Lapua brass is that its been annealed from the factory and it has not started flowing forward after 5 reload going on 6.

My winchester and federal brass have seen the most brass flowing forward after 16 to 20 reload, the Nosler Brass seems to flow less as I bring it up to the 20 re-load stage.

I'm shooting a 308 winchester and 30/06 both are 1 grain shy of max loads for the 178gr bullets.
I'm sure that many of us know that "if" We load hot that brass will move more a-possed too tapping it kool.

Big difference from the 50 to 55.000 cup pressures of the old days compared to 58 and 62.000 +++ of today's cartrages,,, mind you that today's rifle actions are stronger then "some" of those old old time actions from way back when.

I don't see my self departing the Lapua brass line-up any time soon.

Why Lapua brass.
100 brass for $119. Cnd funds
It's very consistant for case volume and individual weigth.
Yes that it Lapua brass is thicker, has less room for powder, but one trade off is a trade up for longevity,,, I'm ok with this.

At first I hated neck sizing Lapua brass because it put my arm to work, but that stiff neck I find is pretty consistant when I'm seating bullets.

I "feel" the constancy when seating bullets now because of these stiff annealed necks,
My Neck die is the standard Lee Collect Neck only as it free floats to let the neck aline with the die,,, my old RCBS neck only die seems more ridged after switching to the Lee Collect.

Its been a learning curve, my plan is to speed things up little lone do more steps to prep ammo over all.

Not to take away from this awesome thread as I'm game to learn new things and ideas, but I need to see benefits on paper that I shoot down range,,, this is done by burning powder.

I'm just starting the first faze of volume powder case loading too save even more time, the bench rest folks started this year's ago, my plan is to improve on this idea with larger volumes of brass at one time.

I'll start a thread on this when I get it things going, it's all about quantity and quality with less time so all of us can spend more time Harvesting and shooting with less time sitting behind the re-load station components.

I totally agree,,, we all want quality ammo, but the under lying question for me is how much time do I want to spend loading.

I'm starting to see 2 kinds of ammo in my world, 1 for accuracy and fast reloading,,, the other with accuracy, precision and fast reloading.
The one with precision might need 1 or 2 extra steps.

Test are underway.

Western Canada Don at a game plan to push these limits. I won't know till I get there

I found that if I don't run a nylon brush through the case necks my resizing die almost gets stuck inside the neck. Takes an excessive amount of force sometimes if I don't clean them good before I resize.

Or lube them with resizing wax prior to running them thru your resizing die. No more friction.
I went from not cleaning the interior of fired casings, to ultrasonic cleaning, back to not cleaning, back to ultrasonic cleaning.
Ultrasonic cleaned case necks pretty much have to be lubed to reduce friction prior to seating bullets.
Now that I've settled into pre-lubing case necks with Hornady Unique resizing wax, there's no reason to not ultrasonic clean - other than the additional time sink.
I appreciate Don Parsons concerns over time efficiency. I shoot very little, in comparison, so the extra time is a non-issue for me.

Like others, I clean my brass with a vibration timber til the outside is clean, but a carbon film remains inside the necks. I clean with the primer in, brushing the pockets out after tumbling. I find the carbon advantageous to consistent seating pressure. Annealing(every 4/5 reloads) does effect the lubricity inside the neck, so I'll will apply a dry lube. Using this approach I have no issue getting sub.5MOA accuracy and consistent velocities with low ES through the life of the case. I find that the quality of the case is more critial to solid performance then is the cleaning procedure. I use mostly Lapua and Norma brass.