Difference between a savage and a tikka barrel

[busse fan]

Just thought I'd share.

First picture is of a brand new unfired Savage 12 LRP.

Second picture is of a brand new unfired Tikka T3 HB Varmint (my t3 lite looks the same btw).

We all know tikka has excellent barrels but ****, for a grand you'd expect better on a savage. No amount of "break in" or dyna bore coat is going to fix that savage. It was returned. The other 12 LRP in stock has the same barrel issues btw and worse crown damage.

 

[highridge1]

Never been a Savage guy they are just too rough for me.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Never been a Savage guy they are just too rough for me.

Agreed. I have never liked Savage. I've been around guns my entire life and shot more than my fair share to give me a good idea of what I do and don't like. And Savage is just one of those companies I don't like. Give me a 700, A-Bolt II, or Mark V any day, but I'll give a Savage back to you...

 

[geargrinder]

How did they shoot?

I know Savage barrels are button rifled. Pictures look like button chatter.

Aren't Tikka's hammer forged?

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I've shot plenty of Savage garbage barrels with very good luck.

Proof is in the gut pile.

 

[westcliffe01]

The Savage barrel in that pic was drilled oversize, then the reamer only hit the top of the peaks and then the button was unable to remove the resulting artifacts. Buyers who have such rifles have the makings of a class action lawsuit since it is a clear manufacturing defect of a systematic nature.

It is BS that anyone accepts this. I have never seen this on a model 10 or 12, but there have been many reports of this on model 11/111's. I have one exactly like the picture from TC on an ICON in 308, their now discontinued "flagship" rifle, and TC refuses to replace the barrel even if I pay for it... How about that ?

 

[FEENIX]

I'm a Savage fan but IIWY, I'd try to contact Savage for replacement or repair opportunities.

I think even gun manufacturers noted for quality (at least at one time) had some kind of manufacturing/quality control flaws, i.e. ... here's one on Remington;



I hope you'll have it resolved soon. Good luck!

 

[Trickymissfit]

How did they shoot?

I know Savage barrels are button rifled. Pictures look like button chatter.

Aren't Tikka's hammer forged?

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I've shot plenty of Savage garbage barrels with very good luck.

Proof is in the gut pile.

a hammer forged barrel is a cheap way to spit out barrels. They have advantages, and their own share of disadvantages as well. That Tika barrel doesn't look like the .270 Winchester barrel that I shot awhile back. It looked more like a really good Remington barrel to me. But the real test is to pull five rifles of each brand off the shelf and scope them. One on one is not a serious compareison

Some of the best looking barrels I've ever seen didn't perform worth a ****, and some of the worst looking barrels shot bug holes. Tony Boyer and Bill Calfee both have made similar quotes over the years, as well.

I have seen some hammer forged barrels shoot very well in the past, but they changed all over the place as they heated up. Most shot OK, but nothing to rave about. On the other hand I've seen cut barrels shoot lights out, and I've seen others that shot like a factory tube.
gary

 

[busse fan]

Hammer forging is not cheap. It's expensive.

 

[geargrinder]

Hammer forging is not cheap. It's expensive.

True, it requires expensive machinery, but it is in an effort to maximize production not quality.

I pointed out the hammer forging because of the pictures of the Tikka barrel. Hammer forging won't produce something like the Savage barrel picture. Hammer forging has it's own issues as already stated.

The picture of the Savage barrel is a result of button rifling problem. Send it back, or see how it shoots.

 

[Trickymissfit]

True, it requires expensive machinery, but it is in an effort to maximize production not quality.

I pointed out the hammer forging because of the pictures of the Tikka barrel. Hammer forging won't produce something like the Savage barrel picture. Hammer forging has it's own issues as already stated.

The picture of the Savage barrel is a result of button rifling problem. Send it back, or see how it shoots.

the initial machinery buy for a hammer forging operation is actually fairly similar to a button rifled setup when it's all said and done. Good quality gun drills don't come cheap, and it's not hard to spend a half million dollars on a four bore gun drill. Then another $250K on tooling (they are cheaper to tool up). An Eldorado indexing gun drill will hit your pocket for a million and a half, and then you gotta tool it up for a minimum of a half million dollars. I have not seen a new Pratt in close to forty years, and I'm not sure Albion is still in business. Those guys are or were the big players in gun drill operations( along with Seneca Falls), and a good used Pratt commands a serious premium even if it needs a rebuild. Then after you cut the bore, you have to invest in a honeing operation. These are not cheap as well, and the tooling can be expensive. Let alone the gauging operation. After that you gotta figure out a way to either pull or push the button thru the bore. Probably have to have a machine built. My guess is that a button operational setup will cost you about 150% more than a hammer forge setup, and maybe as much as twice the cost. The advantage the hammer forge has, is in speed, a far less money spent per part. Gun drills are slow no matter what brand, and that's only the first stage of the operation. You could hand hone barrels (and Savage might), or you can have an automated hone machine. Been around both types extensively, and an automated machine is a solid 3/4 million at the minimum. Eldorado makes an indexing hone that is good for about a tenth and a half if the stones are right (short shafts), and would probably hold .0005" or so in 26" once you got everything aligned correctly. These machines can be deadly accurate, and I've seen them run 200 pieces at well under .0002". Nice thing about an indexing hone is that everytime it indexes you have one finished part, and it ought to hone 26" in about three minutes assuming the bores were cut just right. The finish will be better than anyone can possibly hone by hand, and extremely strait.
gary

 

[westcliffe01]

I think I can understand why people may want to build their own equipment at those prices... A gun drill is basically a 1 axis machine with a special high pressure cooling/lube system. A honing machine is similar except for not needing the high pressure lube + very specialized hones. A button puller is another 1 axis machine with highly custom tooling. A real cut rifling machine is getting closer to a real 3 axis machine.

All of the above need to be temperature controlled because of the close tolerances and staying on top of tool condition is everything and each individual step in the process has to be right.

Drill Blanks oversize and then you get barrels like the Savage example that has been shown. Each and every one of them should be replaced - no questions asked.

 

[Tikkamike]

Just thought I'd share.

First picture is of a brand new unfired Savage 12 LRP.

Second picture is of a brand new unfired Tikka T3 HB Varmint (my t3 lite looks the same btw).

We all know tikka has excellent barrels but ****, for a grand you'd expect better on a savage. No amount of "break in" or dyna bore coat is going to fix that savage. It was returned. The other 12 LRP in stock has the same barrel issues btw and worse crown damage.

Looks like savage uses a tap to rifle their barrels..talk about fast twist!!! I have owned a lot of tikka's and a lot of savages I dont own any savages anymore... only one savage I have worked with shot worth a crap.

 

[westcliffe01]

Not a Savage specific problem. Also TC and others. Once drilled oversize they do not clean up. The bad part is that no-one apparently even looks at them, at any stage of the manufacturing process... Its not as if you need a microscope to see it.

 

[Trickymissfit]

I think I can understand why people may want to build their own equipment at those prices... A gun drill is basically a 1 axis machine with a special high pressure cooling/lube system. A honing machine is similar except for not needing the high pressure lube + very specialized hones. A button puller is another 1 axis machine with highly custom tooling. A real cut rifling machine is getting closer to a real 3 axis machine.

All of the above need to be temperature controlled because of the close tolerances and staying on top of tool condition is everything and each individual step in the process has to be right.

Drill Blanks oversize and then you get barrels like the Savage example that has been shown. Each and every one of them should be replaced - no questions asked.

the coolant systems used on gun drills are pretty expensive, and the newer ones are very elaborate. Multi stage filtration systems that are often redundant. They pumps are usually supercharged hydraulic pumps that produce a lot of volume under high pressure. The older machines used a conventional acme lead screw to drive the drill slide into the part, and this alone used quite a bit of power to drive it (most Pratts use this setup). Later on they invented the balls screw, and it took a lot less power to push the drill (most used a non precision roll thread ball screw). That's about the time that the coolant systems were completely redesigned by the big names. We had several multi axis Seneca Falls gun drills that had two sets of gun drills at each end. The operator could also program a cross axis to help him get the drill holes dead center. The drills were capable of drill from each end at the same time with no step left in the middle. This seriously sped up gun drill operations. Parts were semi hard (40rc) 6xxx series steel. This was the only drill I ever saw conformed like that.

The high pressure coolant does two basic things in a gun drill, and most people think it only is there to cool the drill bit. It's main job is to blow the chips out of the hole. The other job is to pressurize the bushing in the bushing box. Without the correct pressures the dill will not cut strait, and the finish will be ugly.
gary