those who have trouble with berger

[Ridge Runner]

I'm trying to figure out why most are really pleased with berger vlds and a few have terrible performance. being in the latter group I'm almost certain it is either due to cut rifleing or the faster twist so trying to figure out which it is.
so those who see consistant what we term as failures with them is your barrel cut rifled, or faster than normal twist?
I do however with a small sampleing of results (1 actualy) have saw decent performance with the thicker jacketed match vld's. thanks all
RR

 

[Nimrodmar10]

I don't think my problem was twist rate or cut rifling. I think my problem was the. 400" of freebore in my Sendero 7 RUM. Couldn't get anywhere near the rifling

 

[Ridge Runner]

wasn't really thinking of accuracy issues, the 3 deer I've shot with them in my 6.5 gibbs running a 140 vld had less than 2" total penetration. btw mine shoots them incredibly well at .030 off the lands.
RR

 

[Nimrodmar10]

What distance were the 3 deer you shot?

Closest I could get was like. 330" from the lands.

 

[Ridge Runner]

230, 457, 493
MV was 3160 fps, 8 twist kreiger
entrance wounds looked like this

RR

 

[Mikiedem]

185gr vld at 3351 fps out of 300 rum, 6 point bull 457 yards and almost identical results pictured above. 12 twist McGowen barrel.

 

[elkaholic]

I'm trying to figure out why most are really pleased with berger vlds and a few have terrible performance. being in the latter group I'm almost certain it is either due to cut rifleing or the faster twist so trying to figure out which it is.
so those who see consistant what we term as failures with them is your barrel cut rifled, or faster than normal twist?
I do however with a small sampleing of results (1 actualy) have saw decent performance with the thicker jacketed match vld's. thanks all
RR

Twist rate is DEFINITELY a "part" of the equation. There were tests performed years ago by the military "which I have seen in my own testing", that prove this. The test were run using the M1 ('06) and the 30 carbine. The former with a 10 twist and the latter with 16 twist. Both were firing identical 110 grain bullets. The '06 was fired at longer range to simulate identical impact velocity. The bullets were fired into a ballistic gel and the wound cavities were compared. i.e. all else equal, the wound cavities should have been the same. They were anything but! The 10 twist wound cavity was greatly exaggerated in diameter and not as deep. Also proving that rotational velocity maintains itself over distance far better than forward momentum. I performed the same tests with reduced loads to simulate impact velocity with the same result. When a bullet impacts with a greater rotation, the centrifugal force causes expansion at a faster rate. This same affect is seen with thin jacketed bullets which explode in mid air given enough velocity. The velocity at which this happens is directly proportionate to rotational velocity (twist rate) all else being equal. Other factors can also affect this such as wider land three groove rifling which weakens the jacket more and is often noticed especially in smaller bores. A good example of real world damage was noticed in the old 6.5 Swede. Many people noticed they did damage beyond there bore size and velocity. This was because they had a 7.5" twist, if my memory serves me? This can be an advantage, or a disadvantage, and again, always boils down to bullet choice given the other variables indicated, and the intended use on game. As far as cut rifling vs others, I have no experience to form an opinion.......Rich

 

[paphil]

I just had a 7mm 168 berger with the opposite problem. One of the youth hunters for our tv shoot got a whitetail buck at 275 yards and there was no expansion . It was a double lung shot and the deer ran about 80 yards and jumped a fence and piled up about 20 yards past the fence. I had my doubts as to whether the deer was even hit. When we skinned the deer , the wound looked like it was made with a target arrow! It went between the ribs both entry and exit and apparently never expanded at all. The lungs just had a neat little hole punched right through them. I've harvested a lot of different animals with bergers and this is the first time one has failed to expand but the failure to hit bone or dense muscle are probably why. Some guns with cut rifleing and tight bores can cause bergers to heat up and disentergrate thus the two versions of hunting and target. If the hunting bullets don't work in your gun, try the target bullets with the thicker jackets.

 

[Buffalobob]

entrance wounds looked like this

I quit using Hornady bullets because of that type of wound. You could not give me a box of Amax.

I shoot an 8 twist button barrel with the 6mm Berger 115 VLDs at a velocity (3250) which on hot days with a hot barrel will dust bullets yet I normally get terrific penetration and medium expansion on game animals and this groups under 0.2 on occasions. Most likely on hot days velocity is up because I am using RL22.

 

[elkaholic]

I just had a 7mm 168 berger with the opposite problem. One of the youth hunters for our tv shoot got a whitetail buck at 275 yards and there was no expansion . It was a double lung shot and the deer ran about 80 yards and jumped a fence and piled up about 20 yards past the fence. I had my doubts as to whether the deer was even hit. When we skinned the deer , the wound looked like it was made with a target arrow! It went between the ribs both entry and exit and apparently never expanded at all. The lungs just had a neat little hole punched right through them. I've harvested a lot of different animals with bergers and this is the first time one has failed to expand but the failure to hit bone or dense muscle are probably why. Some guns with cut rifleing and tight bores can cause bergers to heat up and disentergrate thus the two versions of hunting and target. If the hunting bullets don't work in your gun, try the target bullets with the thicker jackets.

Good post....this is a case of another post that I recently made concerning "inconsistency" with the Bergers. This likely occurs because when you squeeze the meplat shut to this degree, the tip "on the inside" does not end up the same every time. I have cut into the tips and you will find a different look to the jacket. Sometimes there will be a very small hollow point and sometimes not. I have found even with my own bullets, when you squeeze the tip down this far, you can't avoid a crushing affect and variation resulting. This is why I recommend drilling out the tips for extreme range use with the Bergers and filling with silicone. It will also guarantee expansion at closer range, but usually makes it "too" explosive! The silicone acts like a ballistic tip and hydrolically starts the expansion. Again, I'm not knocking Bergers, but it is a downside. As previously stated in another post, the very thing that allows such a thin jacket to even work on game (the very pointed, small meplat) is also what sometimes makes them inconsistent..........Rich

 

[fllefty]

Started using berger hunting bullets 210gr .300win. mag earlier this year. Shot a heavy bodied canadian whitetail broadside at 40 yds went 5 steps and fell over. The bullet entrance and exit was no bigger than a pencil, no blood to speak of. ( I understand dead is dead) I've since shot several hogs with same results-very little blood. Only when I place the bullet on the shoulder am I getting DRT results- no exits. If you take the extreme range accuracy out of the equation I think there are other better hunting bullet options out there. I have a friend that shoots 7mm 180 bergers out of his 7mm dakota and has had spectacular results( grapefruit size exits). Maybe it just the 210 @ 2900fps mv. Just my .02 cents.

 

[Gene]

I'm trying to figure out why most are really pleased with berger vlds and a few have terrible performance. being in the latter group I'm almost certain it is either due to cut rifleing or the faster twist so trying to figure out which it is.
so those who see consistant what we term as failures with them is your barrel cut rifled, or faster than normal twist?
I do however with a small sampleing of results (1 actualy) have saw decent performance with the thicker jacketed match vld's. thanks all
RR

All VLD's - not just Berger - can be tricky to load for accuracy. Very slight changes in seating depth, neck tension, rifling twist, and load can affect their performance. Flat base bullets are usually much easier to tune. When all the factors come together, VLD's can be very accurate and predictible. I have shot both hunting and target 6mm VLD's, and found no difference in accuracy. I do not hunt with them.

 

[Greyfox]

I ended up getting my best accuracy with the Hunting Berger VLD's with two different rifles when I backed them off the lands , in both rifles, around .075". I have had the same results with the JLK's. My groups were 2x the size or more when I was under .020". As to terminal performance, I have been very impressed with game shot between 50 yards out to 1000 yards. Half inch entrance, 2-3 inch exit with massive internal damage on broadside shots. I have not been able to retrieve a bullet. This is with 6.5x284 at 2970 FPS, 140gr, on a dozen or so deer/antelope, about half shot between 500 and 1000 yards. These 2 rifles, being my long range rigs for +600 yard hunting, I have not tried VLD's in my other hunting rifles. I suspect that VLD's are no different than any bullet tried in a given rifle, some work out, some don't.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Twist rate is DEFINITELY a "part" of the equation. There were tests performed years ago by the military "which I have seen in my own testing", that prove this. The test were run using the M1 ('06) and the 30 carbine. The former with a 10 twist and the latter with 16 twist. Both were firing identical 110 grain bullets. The '06 was fired at longer range to simulate identical impact velocity. The bullets were fired into a ballistic gel and the wound cavities were compared. i.e. all else equal, the wound cavities should have been the same. They were anything but! The 10 twist wound cavity was greatly exaggerated in diameter and not as deep. Also proving that rotational velocity maintains itself over distance far better than forward momentum. I performed the same tests with reduced loads to simulate impact velocity with the same result. When a bullet impacts with a greater rotation, the centrifugal force causes expansion at a faster rate. This same affect is seen with thin jacketed bullets which explode in mid air given enough velocity. The velocity at which this happens is directly proportionate to rotational velocity (twist rate) all else being equal. Other factors can also affect this such as wider land three groove rifling which weakens the jacket more and is often noticed especially in smaller bores. A good example of real world damage was noticed in the old 6.5 Swede. Many people noticed they did damage beyond there bore size and velocity. This was because they had a 7.5" twist, if my memory serves me? This can be an advantage, or a disadvantage, and again, always boils down to bullet choice given the other variables indicated, and the intended use on game. As far as cut rifling vs others, I have no experience to form an opinion.......Rich

The term you are talking about is "upset" and twist and velocity have a lot to do with this.