MYTH or FACT (velocity difference in rifling)

[elkaholic]

I have heard a lot about 5r, 5c, etc. lands delivering higher velocities as well as progressive rifling doing the same. I decided to ask the people who build the barrels what the truth is. Here is what I've found. A year ago, I asked a well known premium barrel maker about progressive twist and he said velocity increases were insignificant.
Today I asked another top barrel maker about their own barrels and if they had ever actually tested 5r vs conventional in their barrels, and if so, what were the results? He told me straight out that they have indeed tested and have found no difference between their 4 groove conventional and their 5r barrels. They tested .223, 6.5, and .308 and the MOST difference they ever found was 12'/sec., and this didn't always favor one or the other. He said that he believes people who have seen major differences were swithching from one manufacturer to another, or there was some other variable involved. The guy I spoke with is also a competitive shooter and obviously could have ANY barrel he wants from his factory. All of his competition rifles have conventional rifling! He also stated that he has never been able to see ANY difference in how they cleaned up but felt it was all about how well lapped the barrel was. I realize this will probably cause some disagreement, but this is what the man said! Does anyone have any ACTUAL test data that contradicts this?.......Rich

 

[Loner]

Usually more lands are used to cut them shallower, allowing thinner jacketed bullets
to stay together at high twists and speeds. Also some claims as to accuracy may be
valid. Just copy the long range record holders, Aggregate scoring is no accident, they
are doing things right. Bartlien , Kreiger , Broughten will tell you what barrels they've
sold to who that have set records. Whatcha looking at building my Friend?

 

[elkaholic]

Usually more lands are used to cut them shallower, allowing thinner jacketed bullets
to stay together at high twists and speeds. Also some claims as to accuracy may be
valid. Just copy the long range record holders, Aggregate scoring is no accident, they
are doing things right. Bartlien , Kreiger , Broughten will tell you what barrels they've
sold to who that have set records. Whatcha looking at building my Friend?

Hi Loner....I've talked to the guys at Bartlein and Krieger and also Dan Lilja. I have owned three Liljas and currently own a 5r Barlein. I have a barrel ordered from Krieger to build a long range hunter, probably a modified 30/375 which I am about ready to have a reamer built . I may use my 300 sherman (not sure yet)? My Krieger is a 10 twist/4 groove in a 28" Sendero contour. It will have a BAT action with a jewell trigger and probably a Mcmillan stock. The scope will be an 8-32x56 SIII. I'm selling off everything else I don't use to build this unit.......Rich

 

[Broz]

My Krieger is a 10 twist/4 groove in a 28" Sendero contour.

Rich, First let me say I have no conclusion what caused my problem. I believe any manufacturer can produce a great barrel and at some point all will produce a dud. But here is my story.

A few seasons ago when I built my full custom 300 win I ordered the same barrel as in your post. It simply did not shoot and was a 1 1/2 moa shooter. Period.

After break in and a total of close to 100 rounds of load development, changing sopes, powders, bullets etc. Nothing helped.

I called Kreiger for help, none was offered and they talked to me like they could not wait to get me off the phone.

I then trashed the new barrel and installed a 5C Broughton. The rifle has shot 1/2 moa to 1000 yards every since.

I am getting a true 2995 fps with 210 Bergers and H-1000. I have owned many 300 wins and I feel this is very good speed for a 28" 300 win with 210's.

It is just my personal thing, but I have never liked the idea of the 4 grove barrels. And that will be my last one. Also, I have rebarreled and built many rifles over the years and that Kreiger is the only new barrel I have ever tossed in the trash.

For what it's worth.

Jeff

 

[Mikecr]

I decided to ask the people who build the barrels what the truth is

This is merely asking a fox what condition the chickens are in..
I don't know the answers but if I were you I'd credit input from those who use barrels, over those who just make them.

 

[elkaholic]

YIKES!!.......I had that same thing with another barrel from a different maker that many of us shoot. It was a three groover. My gunsmith talked to him and he told the smith "obviously you did something wrong" NO HELP! He put a Krieger on and "BUG HOLES". Go Figure? This barrrel is already on order so I guess I will hope for the best but thank you very much for the response. I will CERTAINLY let everyone know how it shoots....Rich

 

[elkaholic]

This is merely asking a fox what condition the chickens are in..
I don't know the answers but if I were you I'd credit input from those who use barrels, over those who just make them.

Thanks Mike....I thought about that as well but what surprised me was that it seemed like he would have had more to gain by telling me something contrary to what he did? time will tell.......Rich

 

[eddybo]

Every barrel maker out there makes an occasional dud. They also have the luck to occasionally produce a real hummer of a barrel. The absolute closest thing I have ever had to a hummer barrel was a 6mm 7.5T that I got from, Pac Nor, who would have thunk it.

 

[elkaholic]

Every barrel maker out there makes an occasional dud. They also have the luck to occasionally produce a real hummer of a barrel. The absolute closest thing I have ever had to a hummer barrel was a 6mm 7.5T that I got from, Pac Nor, who would have thunk it.

Another member just built a 6.5 Sherman with a Pac-Nor and he says it shoots lights out! I went down the list of current 1000 yard shooters and what they are using to kind of help guide my decision.....Rich

 

[Loner]

I wouldn't think it would be too late to change the twist on an order if you had a mind
to.

Oh, and sorry about the "selling what you don't use" It would be nice to have the money and space to just let em stack up wouldn't it? lol

 

[Tumbleweed]

This may not be what you are wanting to know but, just yesterday I talked with our local taxidermist and the original wilcatter of the 7mmSTW who told me a little about the "original" design he came up with before the writer from Shooting Times Westerner stole his idea. His 7mm runs a shallower rifling (how much I don't know) and he has 1" of no rifling out of the throat. He runs 175 Gamekings to 3300fps and has safely had them running to 3600fps. He dropped it back down to 3300 to track with his scope. He said he is better than .5 MOA. B.S.? I don't think, so, he's a straight shooter (no point intended)

 

[Loner]

An inch of freebore is a bunch, but that is how Roy Weatherby gets so much velocity
out of his designs. Not anything new. It doesn't lend itself well to great accuracy but
not bad for a hunting gun. Ideas are borrowed, stolen, used, all the time. It's boils down
to drive. It's the guy who gets it done and marketed that wins. My dad invented the
first smoke alarm in the 50's , never did squat with it, so I'm not rich.

 

[Tumbleweed]

An inch of freebore is a bunch, but that is how Roy Weatherby gets so much velocity
out of his designs. Not anything new. It doesn't lend itself well to great accuracy but
not bad for a hunting gun. Ideas are borrowed, stolen, used, all the time. It's boils down
to drive. It's the guy who gets it done and marketed that wins. My dad invented the
first smoke alarm in the 50's , never did squat with it, so I'm not rich.

Yep, he wasn't interested in pushing it himself. He did actually sit down with the writer for STW magazine and did an interview about the cartridge. He chuckled when he told me that their "STW" was not even in the same league as his original design. Too bad on the smoke alarm!!

 

[rscott5028]

An inch of freebore is a bunch, but that is how Roy Weatherby gets so much velocity
out of his designs. Not anything new. It doesn't lend itself well to great accuracy but
not bad for a hunting gun. Ideas are borrowed, stolen, used, all the time. It's boils down
to drive. It's the guy who gets it done and marketed that wins. My dad invented the
first smoke alarm in the 50's , never did squat with it, so I'm not rich.

There are a lot of variables at work. Several have a major impact and many factors have a small impact that's easily overshadowed.

FWIW - That "clap on, clap off" thing was originally my invention. ...only, I was using it as my trigger mechanism. It was downright dangerous at the shooting range. So, I chunked it and then some guy used it on a lamp.

-- richard