I need some help from the reloading gurus.

[Benchrest Braxton]

In my current thoughts/opinion (liable to change in the future),

brass doesn't mean as much accuracy wise as most people think. Good brass means more from a longevity standpoint more than anything.

all you likely did was throw yourself out of a tune/node from the change in case capacity.

lets get to the real issue at hand:

for starters, i think your 0.163" group you posted is very unrealistic. if thats what your expectation is every time you shoot that gun you are going to be pretty **** disappointed alot.

1/4 moa consistently is top winning shooter ppc benchrest level, and even then……

i bet you if you shoot your "1/4 moa" federal load enough times it will probably shoot the same as your "crap 3/4" lapua load.

show me five 5 shot groups, or even five 3 shot groups of your federal load, and then we'll see where the issue truly lies.

i can't believe no one else here questioned this as well.

i am not trying to be rude, not even in the slightest, maybe your gun does shoot 1/4 moa consistently. i could be dead wrong.

i am just saying i think you may be setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations and driving yourself nuts over statistical variation.

 

[RYEWSKY25284]

Here's what I've got. It's a Savage 308 win. I used Federal gold medal match for the barrel breakin and then worked up a load in the Federal brass that was shooting 1/4 moa with 168 grain Amax and 46 grains of Varget and a 210M primer. I only had about 40 pieces of Federal brass so after it was getting pretty shot out I grabbed a box of Lapua brass. I knew I'd have to tweak the load some but I expected just a small powder charge adjustment because I have done similar with other rifles In the past. Instead though this rifle just shoots like crap with the Lapua brass. 45.8 grains shoots the best at about 3/4". So you think the brass needs fire formed first to shoot well? I've always had good luck with Lapua right out of the box. What are some of your thoughts??

I have not changed anything g else in the load. I just took the 1/4 moa load and put it in the Lapua brass. Same primer. Same bullet. Same seating depth. And the same charge at first. Then I went up to 46.6 grains and 45.5 grains. 45.8 shot around 3/4 moa and below that opened up and above that opened up. It's got me a little puzzled.

Here's a pic of how it was shooting with the Federal brass. I know it says 45.8 grains but 46 (like I said above) proved to be the better load after more testing.

I would think that the new brass may be thicker. And, that would change the cartridge capacity/load density, which in turn would change the pressure curve. I had the same thing happen to me with my 25-284. when back to the old brass and the group went back to normal.

 

[rem.xp100]

lets get to the real issue at hand:

for starters, i think your 0.163" group you posted is very unrealistic. if thats what your expectation is every time you shoot that gun you are going to be pretty **** disappointed alot.

1/4 moa consistently is top winning shooter ppc benchrest level, and even then……

i bet you if you shoot your "1/4 moa" federal load enough times it will probably shoot the same as your "crap 3/4" lapua load.

show me five 5 shot groups, or even five 3 shot groups of your federal load, and then we'll see where the issue truly lies.

i can't believe no one else here questioned this as well.

i am not trying to be rude, not even in the slightest, maybe your gun does shoot 1/4 moa consistently. i could be dead wrong.

i am just saying i think you may be setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations and driving yourself nuts over statistical variation.

I had this same thought.

 

[.300 Dakota]

Here's what I've got. It's a Savage 308 win. I used Federal gold medal match for the barrel breakin and then worked up a load in the Federal brass that was shooting 1/4 moa with 168 grain Amax and 46 grains of Varget and a 210M primer. I only had about 40 pieces of Federal brass so after it was getting pretty shot out I grabbed a box of Lapua brass. I knew I'd have to tweak the load some but I expected just a small powder charge adjustment because I have done similar with other rifles In the past. Instead though this rifle just shoots like crap with the Lapua brass. 45.8 grains shoots the best at about 3/4". So you think the brass needs fire formed first to shoot well? I've always had good luck with Lapua right out of the box. What are some of your thoughts??

I have not changed anything g else in the load. I just took the 1/4 moa load and put it in the Lapua brass. Same primer. Same bullet. Same seating depth. And the same charge at first. Then I went up to 46.6 grains and 45.5 grains. 45.8 shot around 3/4 moa and below that opened up and above that opened up. It's got me a little puzzled.

Here's a pic of how it was shooting with the Federal brass. I know it says 45.8 grains but 46 (like I said above) proved to be the better load after more testing.

Ex: I rebarreled a Savage to 6mm Rem (SAAMI). I used Hornady brass and did break-in and work-up. Just for grins, I plugged the primer pocket with clay and filled a case or 2 with water before firing, and after firing, I repeated this test. Almost 5 grains (FIVE GRAINS!) of difference between the before and after! That's about a 9% increase! That's a whole 'nother cartridge!! So yes, if you did workup with 1x brass, you'll have to continue to use 1x brass, regardless of brand. The change in capacity/chamber fit is radical outside of a custom match chamber. It changes the whole dynamic of the harmonics. Not as simple as equalizing pressure between the 2 loads.

 

[Tree Farmer]

Bull Bull and more Bull you know what.

Your chamber is pretty much fixed. The case capacity after a couple firings is the chamber capacity minus the case weight, OK? Its physics. The brass has expanded to whatever size the chamber is reamed at, plus headspace. ASSUMING you are not full length resizing every round.....

Lighter cases accept more powder. Heavy cases accept less. The ratio of brass to to powder is small -- brass is denser by far, right at 20:1, but not inconsequential.

Crap, why is this concept such a challenge for some people..........

That sounds reasonable to me. I reload primarily to develop accurate hunting ammo. I have separated my brass by weight and it seems to me it shoots more consistently. While it may not actually improve accuracy, it sure doesn't hurt anything and I feel better about it. It doesn't take much time for me to sort a batch of brass since I don't shoot that often.

 

[nksmfamjp]

So did you weigh the empty cases to see what the difference is between them?

Does that help you? I find it tells me more about case length, chamfers and burrs over capacity which is what question I'm wondering about.

I've had my eye on a magneto speed but honestly I know nothing about chronos. If you were say just starting out and wanted to pick up one for load work that was accurate and did the job but didn't break the wallet which one would you buy? I guess I'm asking which one do you think is the best deal. . Thanks again. I value your input.

That can work, but I'd suggest adjusting your focus to a LabRadar. Hanging a chrony of the tip of your barrel will give you different groups….bigger, smaller, moved, other. It would be a challenge to do anything meaningful with that.

That's an option I suppose but I've always had my best luck with Lapua brass in the past. So I think it will do fine once I figure out what it wants. If I switched to federal I'm sure I'd have to fireform it as well

Generality Lapua brass is fine. My guess is you are struggling to find the node again. Also, you shot a good group of 3 last time. Failure to recreate is likely mostly a matter of sample size.

If you ran into pressure, try dropping about 1 gr from any pressure sign at all. Then shoot 7 groups of 3 shots. Did one repeat? If so, the previous group is likely just related to sample size.

.002"

Based on??? Often that is right, but…really you need to take spring out of your bolt and see the longest CBTD that the bolt drops. That is max CBTD.

Try to fill it with water and see which one has more H20 capacity. My WAG is the Norma.

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/338-norma-magnum-improved-h2o-capacity-gain.325181/

Bingo. Weighed water capacity is the only way to compare.

 

[ShootnMathews]

In my current thoughts/opinion (liable to change in the future),

brass doesn't mean as much accuracy wise as most people think. Good brass means more from a longevity standpoint more than anything.

all you likely did was throw yourself out of a tune/node from the change in case capacity.

lets get to the real issue at hand:

for starters, i think your 0.163" group you posted is very unrealistic. if thats what your expectation is every time you shoot that gun you are going to be pretty **** disappointed alot.

1/4 moa consistently is top winning shooter ppc benchrest level, and even then……

i bet you if you shoot your "1/4 moa" federal load enough times it will probably shoot the same as your "crap 3/4" lapua load.

show me five 5 shot groups, or even five 3 shot groups of your federal load, and then we'll see where the issue truly lies.

i can't believe no one else here questioned this as well.

i am not trying to be rude, not even in the slightest, maybe your gun does shoot 1/4 moa consistently. i could be dead wrong.

i am just saying i think you may be setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations and driving yourself nuts over statistical variation.

I agree with almost everything you said. I don't think brass has as much influence on accuracy as seating depth and powder charge but the brass does affect grouping because of volume and pressures. And all I'm trying to do now is work back up into the node. I started this thread because the new box of Lapua I expected to shoot great by just taking it out of the box, sizing and trimming but instead it shot like dog crap. I mean like a 2" group. Which made me question a lot. What I found out yesterday though is I took some of the once fired brass and sized, trimmed, chamfered and all the crap I normally do in brass prep and the rifle shot MUCH better with the last charge shooting .58". I think with these next loads this evening I'll be back into the node and under 1/2". And I also certainly do not expect the rifle nor myself to shoot 1/4moa reliably. I set 1/2MOA is my goal and good enough for me. This rifle however did shoot fantastic in the Hornady brass and averaged under 1/2 MOA reliably with many groups being close to 1/4 moa or smaller. That said I've never had great brass life with Hornady so that's why I buy Lapua. I'm not a real picture taker so I guess you'll just have to take my word for it. I usually only take pics when I'm asking questions or it's just an amazing group. Most groups I was getting with the federal averaged between .20 and .35" which is close enough for me to say 1/4moa load as a rough descriptive term. As far as 5 shot groups I'm having too hard of a time finding the components or paying the price when I do find them to shoot all 5 shot groups when working on a load these days. If it doesn't shoot well in 3 shots it's not going to shoot any Better with 2 more in my opinion.

All I want is 1/2 moa reliably and I'm happy with that from any rifle.

Here's what pics I have taken while working on this load. All 3 shot groups. Some measured and some not.

 

[VarmintBob]

If you match the muzzle velocity you had with federal brass with your Lapua brass loads, it will shoot the same. Change the Lapua powder load until that happens.

 

[ShootnMathews]

Does that help you? I find it tells me more about case length, chamfers and burrs over capacity which is what question I'm wondering about.



That can work, but I'd suggest adjusting your focus to a LabRadar. Hanging a chrony of the tip of your barrel will give you different groups….bigger, smaller, moved, other. It would be a challenge to do anything meaningful with that.


Generality Lapua brass is fine. My guess is you are struggling to find the node again. Also, you shot a good group of 3 last time. Failure to recreate is likely mostly a matter of sample size.

If you ran into pressure, try dropping about 1 gr from any pressure sign at all. Then shoot 7 groups of 3 shots. Did one repeat? If so, the previous group is likely just related to sample size.


Based on??? Often that is right, but…really you need to take spring out of your bolt and see the longest CBTD that the bolt drops. That is max CBTD.


Bingo. Weighed water capacity is the only way to compare.

Well my original problem that started this thread is the new box of Lapua shot like dog crap and I couldn't figure out why. Now I've found once it's fire formed and all the case prep run through again it's just a matter of adjusting my charge to find the node again which I think the loads tonight will be right in the money. My .002" shoulder bump measurement is measured the same way as all my rifles. I take a fired case from that rifle and measure it with a shoulder comparator and adjust my die to bump it back 002" of an inch. This has always given me the best accuracy from my rifles.

And I know 3 isn't the best sample but I also base it on trend. If I load several 3 shot groups at .2 grain increments and each group shoots tighter than the previous as I move up I don't believe it shot better on a fluke. We'll see how these shoot tonight. I think they should shoot under 1/2 moa which is acceptable.

 

[ShootnMathews]

If you match the muzzle velocity you had with federal brass with your Lapua brass loads, it will shoot the same. Change the Lapua powder load until that happens.

I agree. That's what I'm trying to do. But it shot like crap with the Lapua until I tried some of the once fired Lapua. Now it's shooting much better. I think tonight I'll be good with these next loads at 46.6 grains. The federal cases I was shooting 46 even.

 

[dwcars]

Wow~!! What a great post. Although I'm not a competitive shooter I have always worked to get the greatest accuracy I can achieve and take all the steps mentioned in my brass prep. I even separate cartridges by weight. However, this is the first time I've every considered the differences is brass by different manufacturers.
I really appreciate this thread and will now begin to segregate each weight batch by manufacturer to see if I can achieve even greater consistency~!!

 

[Chas1]

I wouldn't get hung up on group size with new brass. I would load the 3/4 " group load and have fun shooting steel until you've got formed brass.

+1. I always fireform new Lapua brass and if I bought other than Lapua brass new I'd fireform it as well.

 

[dwcars]

I'd like to hear remarks from a competitive, 'winning', long-range shooter how he preps is brass step by step~!

 

[ShootnMathews]

Wow~!! What a great post. Although I'm not a competitive shooter I have always worked to get the greatest accuracy I can achieve and take all the steps mentioned in my brass prep. I even separate cartridges by weight. However, this is the first time I've every considered the differences is brass by different manufacturers.
I really appreciate this thread and will now begin to segregate each weight batch by manufacturer to see if I can achieve even greater consistency~!!

Glad it helped someone. Keep in mind that it's not just the weight but the specific alloy that some companies use that affects the outcome. I have some rifles where I can shoot multiple brass manufacturers in with an identical load and grouping and POI are the same. Then there's rifles like this one where switching from federal to Lapua made a HUGE difference. And then I've found that once I fire the Lapua and go through my case prep again it is shooting much better but I still had to adjust up .6 grains of powder and the POI is different as well.